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Arilyn

Hero
Well, based on what they've laid down about last year's response to the Sorcerer UA (people loce the Sorcerer in 5E), I would say the kot likely explanatio is the Next Sorcerer got panned by surveys, and people asked for a 3E style one.
The Next sorcerer was criticised for being over powered but the design seemed to go over very well. Most of us asked for the team to tone it down but PlEASE keep the idea. I remember the large backlash when it got scrapped in favour of a 3e version. Still stings. 😕
 

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Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
I wonder if we could see monster classes again in the future, like in Savage Species.
I don't know if you could get away with that nowadays, it'd be like having Halfling or Dwarf as a class again. I've thought about homebrewing something in that vein though! I was more in favor of the idea of prestige classes for that. "Ok you're fully online as a mind flayer by level 10, now choose what kind of mind flayer you want to be from 10-20."
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
The Next sorcerer was criticised for being over powered but the design seemed to go over very well. Most of us asked for the team to tone it down but PlEASE keep the idea. I remember the large backlash when it got scrapped in favour of a 3e version. Still stings. 😕
I wouldn't mistake online chatter for being representative of the feedback that WotC received in aggregate. Very often the online diacussion "consensus" is the opposite of what the UA surveys come out saying.
 

Frontline combatant doesn’t necessarily equate to tank though. Monks are lightly armored, highly mobile single-target damage dealers - what you might call “strikers,” “skirmishers,” “DPS,” or something along those lines. A “tank” is typically a heavily-armored, limited-mobility, space-controlling unit.
When looking at party structure in modern games, one theme that pops out is a "dodge-tank" that avoids damage, as opposed to preventing or soaking damage with High AC or High HP. If a monk can go toe-to-toe with the big bad and not be splattered at the end, they did the tank's job, no matter how they got it done. If they can do it reliably, they are a tank in my eyes.
 

Arilyn

Hero
I wouldn't mistake online chatter for being representative of the feedback that WotC received in aggregate. Very often the online diacussion "consensus" is the opposite of what the UA surveys come out saying.
WotC had message boards back then. There were a lot of play testers on them. The designers never came out and said that the sorcerer was rejected. They said, if I remember correctly, that we were unhappy with the class being OP. Then we didn't see the sorcerer for a while, then we got a 3e version. 5e was rushed at the end, so I think the designers ran out of time.
 

Oofta

Legend
What terminology would you suggest to improve this? I'm not being a prat when I ask this (I mean aside from in the sense that I perhaps just am one!), I genuinely wonder. Because I wasn't seeing any appropriate words to hand - maybe my vocabulary is simply lacking?

I guess we could add words and use a phrase like "overly cautious" but it's not the same thing - I mean we're looking at a situation, where, seemingly (and we'll never know the exact truth), WotC was on one track with the DND Next test, and looked to be doing something pretty popular, then inexplicably reverted to 3E-style designs for multiple classes, even though they made no sense for the general approach DND Next was taking. IIRC, some of the classes they didn't even playtest (please correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while), they just dropped in basically 3E takes on them. This was particularly bad because some of the 3E classes were themselves throwbacks*.

I don't know what could have inspired that, whilst leaving the rather risky designs like Bard and Warlock (and arguably Paladin) completely intact, except a bout of the design equivalent of having a panic attack or something. Maybe cowardice is thus too harsh, because panic attacks happen to people? But I dunno man, I'm not sure how else to express it. There's a real sense of desperation, to me, in the pullback from the Sorcerer's design in 5E. It was so sudden and unexplained, and the design were proposing was no more shocking than other class designs they had. Combine that with the weirdly 3E-esque designs for other classes, and it's like, what was even going on?

I know back then strange things could happen at WotC. We all probably remember that it's been said that (and not contradicted by anyone at WotC), that the entire reason 4E's "monster math" was messed up was literally because a senior individual at WotC, unbeknownst to the rest of the D&D team, went in and changed the values for the HP for all the monsters upwards just before it went off to print. Maybe someone senior at WotC just put their foot down and said "You can have the Bard and Warlock, but I'll be damned if I'm letting you modernise Sorcerer, Ranger or Monk!, or something. God knows.

I feel like "OH CRAP HAVE WE GONE TOO FAR! PANIC!" is a more likely explanation though.

* = Monk, for example, was seemingly an intentional throwback to the 1970s, and the 1970s Monk was basically based solely and entirely on Remo Williams (as a remarkable thread here demonstrated a while back). Which is wild, it's like if 2nd edition added a class based entirely on Goku from Dragonball Z, or 3E added a class based entirely on Dante from Devil May Cry or something.

Your "cowardice" is my "change for the sake of change is rarely a good thing". 🤷‍♂️ A better explanation is that they are doing the best they can with the expertise and knowledge they have, backed up by playtesting and surveys, to make the game work for as many people as possible. Like all human endeavors it will never be perfect.

Just because the choices they make don't happen to be the ones you personally want, it's insulting to use phrases like "cowardice". It comes off as ... I guess petty is the best word I can come up with.
 

Your "cowardice" is my "change for the sake of change is rarely a good thing". 🤷‍♂️ A better explanation is that they are doing the best they can with the expertise and knowledge they have, backed up by playtesting and surveys, to make the game work for as many people as possible. Like all human endeavors it will never be perfect.
I just don't buy it. You don't design classes like the 5E Bard, the 5E Warlock, the 5E Paladin and so on, all modern and interesting designs, then suddenly do a 180 and revert to 3E-style design for a few classes for no clear reason (I should note that Warlock and Paladin weren't even classes I liked before 5E - I was actually kind of sighing that Warlock was included at all until I saw the design). Likewise the Fighter and Rogue, whilst perhaps not ideal, are significantly modernized, as is the Barbarian. The Cleric and Wizard are more or less "as expected".

And it's no accident 3 out of the 4 "reverted to 3E" classes are widely (and accurately) regarded as some of the least effective classes and all four as the least well-designed classes in 5E, either - presumably because they didn't get the attention and thought put into them that other 5E classes did get. Sorcerer that's particularly obvious - they were clearly thinking down one direction, then suddenly reverted, despite, as far as literally anyone can tell, feedback being strongly positive on the DND Next Sorcerer (AFAICT they've never explained this, but maybe I've forgotten). Did the Monk/Druid/Ranger get DND Next playtests at all? I forget at this point.

Calling the 5E Sorcerer's design "change for change's sake" is absolutely as insulting as anything I'm saying, too - it certainly didn't look like change for change's sake - it looked carefully considered.

Just because the choices they make don't happen to be the ones you personally want, it's insulting to use phrases like "cowardice". It comes off as ... I guess petty is the best word I can come up with.
That's obviously untrue and unfair if you actually read my posts, and I know you do. Loads of 5E design "isn't the choices I personally want" - like 30% of it! So trying to make a case that I'm calling "cowardice" just because of that is obviously and patently false, and rather disappointing, frankly. I don't think, for example, the HD-based healing system is the result of a panic about going too far, nor do I think the plain-jane design of the Wizard is, nor do I think the almost excessively generous default Long Rest system nor excessively penalized Short Rest system is the result of anything like that.

I'm talking about one very specific and unusual thing that happened - there are three "plausible" causes I can see:

1) They got scared of going too far with redesigns and reverted to 3E approaches without really considering how they would fit into 5E - this explains why they're all clumsier designs too.

2) Someone at WotC put their foot down and just overruled everything else (other designers, surveys, etc.) - this seems to have happened occasionally, so it's possibility.

3) They ran out of time, and reverted simply because they didn't have time to design new/better mechanics for these classes - it's a little hard to explain the Sorcerer with this, but we know from WotC comments that they did basically run out of time on the design of both 4E and 5E, and it's possible this was the cause. It tallies with a lot of other design issues in 5E, particularly the dubious quality and confused-seeming DMG (relative to other D&D DMGs, almost certainly including the 2024 DMG, which I expect to be pretty great if I'm honest), so I can't rule it out.

Some combination of all three could also be true - i.e. they saw they were running out of time, had some potential options for how to deal with it, and decided or were told that reverting to 3E-style designs was the best way to use the time left to them before it had to go to print.
 

Oofta

Legend
I just don't buy it. You don't design classes like the 5E Bard, the 5E Warlock, the 5E Paladin and so on, all modern and interesting designs, then suddenly do a 180 and revert to 3E-style design for a few classes for no clear reason. Likewise the Fighter and Rogue, whilst perhaps not ideal, are significantly modernized, as is the Barbarian. The Cleric and Wizard are more or less "as expected".

And it's no accident 3 out of the 4 "reverted to 3E" classes are widely (and accurately) regarded as some of the least effective classes and all four as the least well-designed classes in 5E, either - presumably because they didn't get the attention and thought put into them that other 5E classes did get. Sorcerer that's particularly obvious - they were clearly thinking down one direction, then suddenly reverted, despite, as far as literally anyone can tell, feedback being strongly positive on the DND Next Sorcerer (AFAICT they've never explained this, but maybe I've forgotten). Did the Monk/Druid/Ranger get DND Next playtests at all? I forget at this point.

Calling the 5E Sorcerer's design "change for change's sake" is absolutely as insulting as anything I'm saying, too - it certainly didn't look like change for change's sake - it looked carefully considered.


That's obviously untrue and unfair if you actually read my posts, and I know you do. Loads of 5E design "isn't the choices I personally want" - like 30% of it! So trying to make a case that I'm calling "cowardice" just because of that is obviously and patently false, and rather disappointing, frankly. I don't think, for example, the HD-based healing system is the result of a panic about going too far, nor do I think the plain-jane design of the Wizard is, nor do I think the almost excessively generous default Long Rest system nor excessively penalized Short Rest system is the result of anything like that.

I'm talking about one very specific and unusual thing that happened - there are three "plausible" causes I can see:

1) They got scared of going too far with redesigns and reverted to 3E approaches without really considering how they would fit into 5E - this explains why they're all clumsier designs too.

2) Someone at WotC put their foot down and just overruled everything else (other designers, surveys, etc.) - this seems to have happened occasionally, so it's possibility.

3) They ran out of time, and reverted simply because they didn't have time to design new/better mechanics for these classes - it's a little hard to explain the Sorcerer with this, but we know from WotC comments that they did basically run out of time on the design of both 4E and 5E, and it's possible this was the cause. It tallies with a lot of other design issues in 5E, particularly the dubious quality and confused-seeming DMG (relative to other D&D DMGs, almost certainly including the 2024 DMG, which I expect to be pretty great if I'm honest), so I can't rule it out.

I have no problem with people saying "I prefer" or "I wish they had". There's a few things that I wish they had done different. But you just spit out the same old bunch of words that boil down to "I don't like the direction they took so therefore they're crap designers." I don't know why they made the decisions they did, but calling it cowardice because you don't like the design is petty. If you think you're so much better at it, why not create your own game system?
 

I have no problem with people saying "I prefer" or "I wish they had". There's a few things that I wish they had done different. But you just spit out the same old bunch of words that boil down to "I don't like the direction they took so therefore they're crap designers." I don't know why they made the decisions they did, but calling it cowardice because you don't like the design is petty. If you think you're so much better at it, why not create your own game system?
This is weirdly petty, frankly, and it's weird and out of character for you, so I'm not even going to argue with it. I hope your day improves significantly.
 

I definitely am not a fan of any idea reducing the classes down to 3 or 4 classes. And after perception of a certain edition being a "failure" in the eyes of many because of many classes not appearing in the PHB (yes I know every core classes from before eventually did make it in), cutting out classes would have been a bad idea.
 

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