In Place of Chainmail?

[Green Knight]

Edit: Ah, I took too long composing my message and got cross-posted with GK. I like the way you think, Green Knight, in how you would combine the two. Basically, you'd want two seperate products using the same ruleset. One for the minis gamers and one for the rp gamer. The only chink in this plan is that the RP gamer version would require much more R+D and probably would not be as profitable (since minis games make their money on minis). Still, sounds cool.

Damn. Cross-posted, myself.

Anyway, I don't think the RP game version would require too much. IMO, it could probably be done in 1 supplement. Maybe a general book on warfare in D&D worlds, with a section on how to integrate the miniature game into the RPG (Or perhaps that being the main focus, with some other chapters on rules for mass combat without the use of miniatures). Such a book, IMO, can't be any LESS profitable than a book like the Epic Level Handbook. Warfare in D&D is certainly a lot more common than PC's reaching epic levels.

BTW: Voodoo, I also tried to use Warhammer Fantasy for D&D, so you're not alone in that. Didn't quite work out, though...

Edit 2: You'll have to excuse me if I come off as a little pushy/rude/obnoxious. As stated previously, I'm a big Chainmail fan, and I was irked when WotC pulled the plug on it. It was a great little game that suffered from a variety of problems exterior to the game itself.

Don't worry about it. You're not the only one. I was flaming mad when I first heard about it, myself. Sure crapped on my birthday celebration, which was on the 26th. It especially ticked me off as I got my friends into Chainmail, as well as convincing a local store owner to carry the game and start up leagues, there. Ticks me off that I convince all these people to spend their money on Chainmail only for WoTC to can the game. Nevermind the fact that I really liked the game, despite how much I wanted a mass combat game.

 

[Bhadrak]

(Heh, rather than re-edit my previous post yet again, I'll just have another post. )

Have any of you ever run a military campaign inside the context of a D+D campaign? I'm just curious to see how many people: a) have done this; or b) wanted to do it, but never bothered because of the lack of ruleset?

I did one once back during the days of the first Battlesystem for D+D. The only problem is it ended up splitting my gaming group. Half of them wanted to drop most of the RPG part, while the others wanted to ditch the military part.

 

[Bhadrak]

Don't worry about it. You're not the only one. I was flaming mad when I first heard about it, myself. Sure crapped on my birthday celebration, which was on the 26th.

Heh, happy birthday a few days late. Sorry Chainmail got canned on your birthday.

If it's any consolation, at least you didn't have my week. My house was flooded by a burst pipe, my cat got a bladder infection, and Chainmail was canceled (all in the space of like 48 hours). That's not to mention the fact that one of my roommate's dogs decided to crap all over the house one day.

 

[Green Knight]

(Heh, rather than re-edit my previous post yet again, I'll just have another post. )

Have any of you ever run a military campaign inside the context of a D+D campaign? I'm just curious to see how many people: a) have done this; or b) wanted to do it, but never bothered because of the lack of ruleset?

I did one once back during the days of the first Battlesystem for D+D. The only problem is it ended up splitting my gaming group. Half of them wanted to drop most of the RPG part, while the others wanted to ditch the military part.

Surprisingly enough, yes, I have done this! I think 2 when I was DMing a Forgotten Realms campaign years ago. The first was a war between the dwarves of the Great Rift and a nearby Drow city. The other was the PC's helping out the elves of Evereska defend against a goblin army besieging them. Both times I had to wing it and the battles didn't come off the way I wanted them too. Especially with the dwarf/drow war. I just said "The Dwarves won. The end". Really would've like a way to actually leave the fate of that war to chance, rather than making an arbitrary decision. Would've been great to have had a miniature war game and have the players fight out the war, themselves, playing the dwarf generals, as well as other battles in which their PC's are personally involved.

Another Forgotten Realms campaign I played before that involved the players building up a force in the Cormanthyr forest, near Myth Drannor. We wanted to have a permanent presence, there, and eventually destroy all the creatures there (Yes, we were both young and munchkins). Never did it, though.

Heh, happy birthday a few days late. Sorry Chainmail got canned on your birthday.

Thanks. Though that sucked, I still had a good day, over all. Can't go wrong when you get the entire first season of Transformers on DVD.

If it's any consolation, at least you didn't have my week. My house was flooded by a burst pipe, my cat got a bladder infection, and Chainmail was canceled (all in the space of like 48 hours). That's not to mention the fact that one of my roommate's dogs decided to crap all over the house one day.

Whoa, that sucks.

 

[Ulrick]

I've been playtesting an altered version of chainmail to handle larger skirmishes. I've been using this in my Greyhawk Campaign. It seems to work well but there are a few kinks in it.

Hopefully, if I tinker it a bit I'll be able to convert it into a d20 mass combat rules set. I'm also working on a different point system than the one in original chainmail rules. That point system didn't make much sense to me.

So far, my players and I have had a lot of fun with this system. Its so easy to convert rank-and-file troops from D&D. The game itself takes up an afternoon because there's more troops involved yet its time well spent.


Ulrick

 

[mmadsen]

Have any of you ever run a military campaign inside the context of a D+D campaign? I'm just curious to see how many people: a) have done this; or b) wanted to do it, but never bothered because of the lack of ruleset?

It's a staple of SHARK's campaign world, and I've been tempted to run military campaigns numerous times, "but never bothered because of the lack of ruleset"...

 

[mmadsen]

Frequently, I hear people saying that there should've been a system where you could've figured out the point value of a unit you create. Personally, I don't see why such a system would be needed, even if it were possible to create one. For use in JUST a miniature battle, just give it whatever points value you and your opponent agree on.

By that argument, who needs preprinted rules? Just agree between the two of you how much damage an ogre club does, how much armor a dwarf champion has, how fast the unicorn cavalry can charge, etc.

Perhaps a point system will have loop-holes, but having some guidelines makes more sense than having none, right? After all, until you've played the game a few times, you don't really know what makes for a fair battle. Hopefully the designers know more than you do.

But when using a mass combat game in the context of a D&D campaign, you don't NEED to know the point values of your units. For instance, I very much doubt enemy commanders make sure that their armies are 1,000 points before going into battle. Some armies are clearly superior to the other and massacres happen. So when using a miniature game to represent a battle going on in your D&D world, you don't need to know the point values of your units.

If you need (or want) to know the CR of small encounters, I don't see why you wouldn't want to know the mega-CR of mega-encounters. It is a game after all, not a pure simulation.

Let me add that to the list of things I would've liked to have seen. Rules for integrating a mass combat game into a standard D&D campaign. How to handle sieges, etc. That sort of thing. That would have been SO awesome.

Agreed.

 

[Henry]

Heh, happy birthday a few days late. Sorry Chainmail got canned on your birthday.

If it's any consolation, at least you didn't have my week. My house was flooded by a burst pipe, my cat got a bladder infection, and Chainmail was canceled (all in the space of like 48 hours). That's not to mention the fact that one of my roommate's dogs decided to crap all over the house one day.

I was WONDERING where my Mogwai had taken off to! The minute I turn my back, he's nesting at someone else's house!

Here, Spike! (whistle) Come to daddy!

I hope things get better for you!

 

[mmadsen]

I've been playtesting an altered version of chainmail to handle larger skirmishes....Hopefully, if I tinker it a bit I'll be able to convert it into a d20 mass combat rules set.

How are you altering Chainmail for larger battles? And do you think Chainmail is a good starting point for a d20 mass combat rules set?

 

[Dr Midnight]

Sorry for not reading the whole thing (time), but I'd just like to pop in with a vote for seeing miniatures produced a'la MAGEKNIGHT and HEROCLIX: prepainted. I know Dwarven Forge sells painted minis, but these are rather pricey... I want mass-produced painted plastic minis. The hobbyists can still buy their metal figures and spend hours painting them. I just want a source to buy a band of orcs from at 15 bucks, ready to play. Playing with counters feels tacky, playing with unpainted minis is dull, and playing with painted miniatures isn't worth the time invested (IMO).