D&D 4E In terms of theme, tone, and spirit, I hope 4e . . .

[TerraDave]

I think I have lost this thread. But am not quite done with it.

A few responses:

Cherry Picking: The first pictures where well known images from (what would now be called) the core rules, found in millions of books. The cherry picking came later.

Style: I never said that later art was not more profesional, how could I say otherwise. (And I don't think that was the point of the OP). But that doesn't make it evocative or interesting. Some is, much is pretty bland. As is true in general of the current edition of the game. So profesional and mechanically sound it can put you right to sleep.

"Get over it, you old grognard": Ahmm. I would tell you what to get over if it wouldn't get me banned. If you haven't notice older editions and their art haven't gone anywhere. They are more easily available then ever. Whole game companies exist to imitate their style. As for the original post and thread title, the new edition could be a more profesional version of that older art, in fact you could argue that many of the posts here are exactly that.

Anime: What is that?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The thing is, there's a reason medieval armor and weapons looked like they did: Because that's what worked. While there's certainly some room for artistic deviation, and I'm all for D&D showing a wide range of styles, changing the baseline often creates armor or weapons that are absolutely non-functional.

Your average D&D fighter is a friggin superman in terms of stats compared to ye olde midieval warrior however. How many guys in 1400 england were running around with a 24+ strength and con?

Better question. How many of them had magical armor? Mithral armor?

If you're going to run a fantasy game, make it fantasy. The thing that bores me the most about WOTC's current settings is they're afraid to actually be something other than the same regurgitated midieval euro-centric stuff.

 

[GreatLemur]

Image hosted by Tripod? Noooooooooooooooooo!

Yeah, Tripod is a travesty. But you can just copy the URLs into your browser, and they work fine.

The thing is, there's a reason medieval armor and weapons looked like they did: Because that's what worked. While there's certainly some room for artistic deviation, and I'm all for D&D showing a wide range of styles, changing the baseline often creates armor or weapons that are absolutely non-functional.

I'm not really convinced on that score. The more I see of historical weapons and armor, the more I think stylistic variations are more a cultural than practical thing. To be honest, some of the weapons people have really, actually used throughout history make spiked chains look perfectly reasonable.

Also, I generally expect a different level of craftsmanship and manufacturing capacity from D&D cultures than I do from real ones. In most D&D settings, the age of swords and armor isn't something that's been going on for just the past few centuries since people learned to work metals, and will end in the next few generations after somebody discovers gunpowder. Generally, this stuff has been going on for thousands of years. They didn't just learn to forge steel; they've moved on to mithril and adamantine. They've got dwarves. I kind of assume they've gone places in their armor designs that we never had a chance to.

So when I see "A Paladin in Hell", I can't look at that armor as piece of perfectly logical convergent evolution of mounted warriors' gear; I just feel like the dude came from Europe, Earth instead of Greyhawk, Oerth.

All of which doesn't mean it's not a completely freaking classic image. I mean, hell, everyone here knew exactly what illustration mhacdebhandia was referring to, because we damn well remembered the thing, even if it's been decades since we saw it.

It's just natural. It's like when old people, like grandma, classifies all modern music as "heavy metal".

It aint what is was before, thus it is "heavy metal" and automatically suspect. And much as the "D&D illos are anime" meme, saying something is "heavy metal" is often presented as enough evidence of its lack of quality.

I've been confused by the phenomenon, myself, and this is the best explaination I can come up with, too. It's "anime" because that's a word some folks already come to associate with a style of fantasy art that's unfamiliar and unappealing to them.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Totally – Jeff Dee had that whole Captain America's boots thing going on (which I loved!).

I think they're called swashbuckler boots. Quite common apparel for superheroes.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I've been confused by the phenomenon, myself, and this is the best explaination I can come up with, too. It's "anime" because that's a word some folks already come to associate with a style of fantasy art that's unfamiliar and unappealing to them.

I think it relates both to the slickness of the images, which might remind one of Jin Roh (for example), Ghost in the Shell, or Final Fantasy. Couple this with the exaggerated static portraits of some of the characters in the PHB (which might remind one of those anime which regularly re-use such images, like Sailor Moon or Pokemon). Couple this with hair styles from Dragonball Z and weapons that might have come from any of a number of anime (surely Vampire Hunter D and Link both weilded bigger-than-believable swords from time to time). And I know that I've seen excessive buckles/spikes in anime. Couple this with textual cues like the 3.5e paladin's mount and the wuxia/anime-like action of high-level play.

I don't think that 3.x art (even the core art) is really anime-like, but I can understand why one might draw that conclusion.


RC

 

[Baby Samurai]

I think they're called swashbuckler boots. Quite common apparel for superheroes.

Elric had very stylish mini ones in the 1st edition Deities&Demigods.

 

[Asmor]

Of course it looks like anime! Don't you think every picture in 3.x looks just like this?

-The Gneech

I'm fairly sure you were being facetious, but it's worth pointing out that Record of Lodoss War (which I'm 99% sure is where that image is from) is pretty much an anime based on (old school) D&D, so any similarities to D&D there are because the anime was literally copying it!

 

[Asmor]

That's Ed, he works the night shift. You'll be relieving him every morning when you come in.

Also, I generally expect a different level of craftsmanship and manufacturing capacity from D&D cultures than I do from real ones. In most D&D settings, the age of swords and armor isn't something that's been going on for just the past few centuries since people learned to work metals, and will end in the next few generations after somebody discovers gunpowder. Generally, this stuff has been going on for thousands of years. They didn't just learn to forge steel; they've moved on to mithril and adamantine. They've got dwarves. I kind of assume they've gone places in their armor designs that we never had a chance to.

You know, that's a really, really great point that I've never thought of or seen brought up.

 

[Delta]

And why are dwarves carrying torches, anyway?

In the OD&D box set, no PC races had infravision. Perhaps the pictures were initially drawn at that time. See also: 1E PHB p. 15.

But even if that's not the case, I like the fact that 1E artists were bringing outside sensibilities into the game books -- they weren't restricted to rules adjudications in the fantasy they were drawing. To me, it felt more expansive and exercised my imagination trying to explain how such-and-such a picture came to be, perhaps in my own D&D game. I really liked that.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

Perhaps it's because I am younger and have no rose tinted glasses of nostalgia to put on, but all of the art in the newer editions is, to me at least, leagues and bounds better than what has been posted of the old material, including the picture in the original post. The old pictures don't really have style, they're very bland, and honestly seem quite amateurish in comparison to the quality you see in todays illustrations.

Honestly, can anyone really say that any of the characters or pictures in the old editions are cool, like the ones in 3E? As always, this is simply my perspective, but for me at least, any move back to the primitive and bland styles found in previous editions of the game would be nothing but a mistake.