D&D 4E In terms of theme, tone, and spirit, I hope 4e . . .

[Wolfspider]

I'm confused.

Are folks saying that the above are not conventions in anime, or that they don't appear in D&D 3.X art, or both?

I certainly don't see very much of that kind of thing in "My Neighbor Totoro" and "Spirited Away."

I'll agree that there is some anime out there that does include some of those conventions.

I think very little 3rd edition art does.

Now, if we were talking Exalted, then he'd have a case.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I certainly don't see very much of that kind of thing in "My Neighbor Totoro" and "Spirited Away."

I'll agree that there is some anime out there that does include some of those conventions.

So, when someone says that the art is "anime-like" on the basis of those criteria, assuming that the art meets that criteria, wouldn't it be fair to agree that the art would be like a certain style of anime? I mean, there have been a lot of different cartoons, but one still knows what is meant by "cartoon-like" even if not all cartoons match that style.

After all, you would not want one to conclude that "argument by ridicule" was being used because the poster ridiculed was uncomfortably close to the truth, would you?

I think very little 3rd edition art does.

It depends, I think.

Core books? I believe that there is a case to be made.

Newer books? Much less so.

Oh, and btw, Spirited Away rocked.

RC

 

[Grog]

I would like to mention that there ARE more recent illustrations that do evoke that sense of exploring the unknown for me ... two examples I remember in particular from PHB II were

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97179.jpg

and

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97180.jpg

...both by Michael Komarck. I think one important thing is that these aren't just static portraits or big battle scenes -- these images show the heroes within the story context, and have the expectation of things to come, if that makes any sense. The illustrations aren't just there to show off a spell effect or what a monster looks like. They tell a story, or at least invite you in to one.

-The Gneech

Just wanted to chime in and say I think those pictures are great. Thanks for the links.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

. . . returns to this:

. . . and gets away from this:

There is something to be said for "feel", after all.

So, anything that deviates at all from your perception of what D&D is, including a single picture of a single character, should be eschewed? I think there's room for both "feels." I'm a fan of that Tramp pic, but I have nothing against that pic of Hennet. I thought plenty of the old was cool, and I think plenty of the new is cool also. I don't limit myself in my interests.

 

[Wolfspider]

So, when someone says that the art is "anime-like" on the basis of those criteria, assuming that the art meets that criteria, wouldn't it be fair to agree that the art would be like a certain style of anime? I mean, there have been a lot of different cartoons, but one still knows what is meant by "cartoon-like" even if not all cartoons match that style.

After all, you would not want one to conclude that "argument by ridicule" was being used because the poster ridiculed was uncomfortably close to the truth, would you?

Good point. I've seen some anime that does meet the criteria that he lists. I've also seen quite a bit of work by American comic book artists of the 90's that does. However, I still argue that the great majority of D&D art does not fit that description.

It depends, I think.

Core books? I believe that there is a case to be made.

Newer books? Much less so.

Could you post some examples of core book art that you think is "anime"-like?

Oh, and btw, Spirited Away rocked.

RC

Oh yes it did. Great movie.

I love your handle, by the way. I may have to steal it for an NPC name or something.

I guess what my main pet peeve is that what is commonly called "anime" is a very broad category that contains a lot of different styles. A lot of people seem to look at Dragonball Z or Ninja Scroll and think that all anime is like that. (And even those two works have vastly different styles.) That is a rather foolish claim to make, I think.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm afraid I don't see much of what you've listed in your definition of "anime" in D&D 3rd edition art at all. Why don't you post a link to an example of each thing you list?

I'd like to see that, also. I have most 3e books, and I'm just not getting an anime feel from most of the art.

 

[Irda Ranger]

there is a difference between "cool in isolation" and "cool in context".

Right. Those pics from PHB II that the Gneech linked to are "cool in context", but there's far too little of that in the new artwork. Even M:tG cards have more context than most of the 3e art I've seen (admittedly not a lot - but the Core stuff, certainly).

Although I'm not fan of what Korgoth is calling 3e's "anime" style either, a 3e supplement that has a high number of "cool in context" art is Cityscape. But there's precious little of that.

To use some modern art (not to hearken back to some old books where nostalgia may be effecting judgment), compare this:

with this ...

The former of course is the Hexblade from Complete Warrior. But he's just a visual stat blocked, ripped out of all context and story. The latter warriors aren't nearly as obviously bad-ass or graphically detailed, but you can sense that they're part of something bigger.

I actually don't like the 1e picture posted by the OP, but I think what he's getting at is that the older art felt less like "a portrait of my Hexblade 4" and more of a window into the campaign world. You got the feeling that if you could just see around the edges of the painting, it would keep going off to a far horizon.

I do not want to make this an edition war though, because really, a lot of that old stuff just stank. The production values were very low compared to the new stuff. Their only edge at all was that they were more likely to paint "scenes", like a photographer on the scene taking a snap shot mid-adventure. It might have been "bad", but it was inspiring. The 3e art usually doesn't inspire me any more than a mini in someone's display case does.

For the curious, the second piece is from Goodman Game's Iron Heroes adventure: To Duel With Dragons (levels 4-6). Like Piraecat said, they'll make you happy.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I guess what my main pet peeve is that what is commonly called "anime" is a very broad category that contains a lot of different styles. A lot of people seem to look at Dragonball Z or Ninja Scroll and think that all anime is like that. (And even those two works have vastly different styles.) That is a rather foolish claim to make, I think.

While I know that styles vary widely within anime and manga, any given example is recognizable as such. I mean, it's definitely distinguishable from western-style art. I have to admit I'm not a fan of anime/manga in general, though I like a few specific examples, mostly what many consider proto-anime (Speed Racer was a big favorite of mine as a child). My overall point being, if 3e art had a definite manga/anime look or feel to it, I would not feel very well-disposed towards it. There are definite influences here and there, naturally, but calling 3e art anime in look and feel in general is way off-base.

 

[Wolfspider]

Irda, I think what you're talking about is "static" vs. "dynamic" art. There's plenty of each in every edition of D&D. Larry Elmore, for example, is a wonderful artist, but most of his work is very static. They are very much like portraits. On the other claw, I find the work of Erol Otus to be very dynamic. There's always something going on in his pictures...usually something very weird.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Good point. I've seen some anime that does meet the criteria that he lists. I've also seen quite a bit of work by American comic book artists of the 90's that does. However, I still argue that the great majority of D&D art does not fit that description.

Could you post some examples of core book art that you think is "anime"-like?

I'd have to pull out the books. And please note that "a case can be made" does not mean that I would be the one making it. Simply that I could not so easily dismiss it.

I love your handle, by the way. I may have to steal it for an NPC name or something.

Originally coined for a short story that ended up going nowhere. Of course, I've finished and sold stories that "sat" in my mind for longer than the Raven Crowking one, so we'll see.......



And, yes, there are tons of cool names on EN World well worthy of stealing for NPCs.

I guess what my main pet peeve is that what is commonly called "anime" is a very broad category that contains a lot of different styles. A lot of people seem to look at Dragonball Z or Ninja Scroll and think that all anime is like that. (And even those two works have vastly different styles.) That is a rather foolish claim to make, I think.

I can understand that. But it is hardly uncommon for "laymen" to classify things differently than "experts" in any field of knowledge.


RC