D&D 4E In terms of theme, tone, and spirit, I hope 4e . . .

[Raven Crowking]

Irda, I think what you're talking about is "static" vs. "dynamic" art. There's plenty of each in every edition of D&D. Larry Elmore, for example, is a wonderful artist, but most of his work is very static. They are very much like portraits. On the other claw, I find the work of Erol Otus to be very dynamic. There's always something going on in his pictures...usually something very weird.

Not really.

The 3e Druid picture in the PHB is static, but also "cool in context".

Several pictures in the 3e PHB and DMG are dynamic, but lack that "cool in context" feeling.

RC

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I really have to say that current D&D art and anime have much in common:

Both are actually quite good, but there's people who only see (or want to see) a couple of extremes ("spiky-haired redhead who jumps 20 metres in the air wielding a sword that is ten times as large as himself"), say the whole genre of art is like this, and then call it trash.

Another case of ignorance being way ahead of knowledge in the big confidence race.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

To use some modern art (not to hearken back to some old books where nostalgia may be effecting judgment), compare this:

with this ...

One's a character portrait, the other a battle scene.

3e does have battle scenes and similar. It just does not use them exclusively. In some cases, it's all about the character, and I have no problem with that. It might not be quite as good at making you envision the campaign world, but for me it is all the better at showing me how my character looks - I'm not just watching a movie with nice sceneries, I'm part of the action, and my character is more than a heap of numbers generated consulting dice and charts.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I think art pretty much has to have these two aspects to be anime:

1) The distinctive facial features - big eyes, small mouth, partway between oriental and caucasian.
2) Look like a still from a cartoon - black line, lack of foreground detail.

The big elven ears are another very prominent anime fantasy shiboleth. Less important would be girls with funny coloured hair (especially blue), mecha, transformation scenes, catgirls, etc.

I'm not seeing much, if any, of that in 3e art. There is a fair amount of black line but I think the inspiration is comic books rather than anime. Leafing through the Spell Compendium there is one (wonderful) picture of a mecha, a warforged titan. Yeah, there are oversized weapons, and yeah you see those in anime, but there's been a trend towards that for a long time in fantasy art. There was a lot of it from Games Workshop in the 80s, it used to be satirised as 'chaos spikey death bits' back then. Very unrealistic, big weapons, spikey armour. Sort of a cartoon gothic style. But it never really looked like anime, it was too dark and not at all cute. A lot of those artists worked on 2000AD also.

I think what you're seeing with the images like the Knight Of Thay (which is pure 80s Games Workshop) is the influence of this cartoon gothic style.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There has been a definite shift in art style with 3e. There are certainly distinctive features to what is called 'dungeonpunk' - less realism in armour and weapons, contemporary features such as tats, piercings and fetishwear. But dungeonpunk <> anime. It doesn't even look influenced by anime imo.

As an aside would anyone say Dark Sun's art was early dungeonpunk? Brom's work is, if anything, more fetishistic than the 3e stuff.

 

[Korgoth]

I guess what my main pet peeve is that what is commonly called "anime" is a very broad category that contains a lot of different styles. A lot of people seem to look at Dragonball Z or Ninja Scroll and think that all anime is like that. (And even those two works have vastly different styles.) That is a rather foolish claim to make, I think.

That's fair. When I slam something as "anime" I'm thinking of DBZ, etc. My impression (which resident experts may wish to correct) is that things of that nature are the "norm" in anime.

You invoked Miyazaki. His stuff, which I think of as works of film art and would review side-by-side with regular live action movies, doesn't for the most part match up with the elements I listed. Maybe we're talking a different language in that I don't equate Miyazaki with "anime" (I'm not saying that his work isn't technically anime, only that's not necessarily what leaps to my mind in this context)... I thought, though I could be mistaken, that I saw an interview with him (in the context of Princess Mononoke, iirc) where he said that he didn't like most Japanese animation.

Anyway, you make a fair point. When I call out 3E art as "anime" I mean the spiked / pierced / tattooed / BDSM static wuxia posing element of it; I don't in any way mean to take a swipe at the visual poetry of Miyazaki. Whereas you're saying that "anime" is a broader term that should take all of those things into account.

Although the term "anime" is in danger of becoming so broad that it doesn't mean anything. I've seen things where characters didn't seem to have particularly big eyes or small mouths. At some point, does "anime" just become animation that's made in Asia... except when it's made somewhere else?

 

[Korgoth]

To use some modern art (not to hearken back to some old books where nostalgia may be effecting judgment), compare this:

[snippage]

Thanks for posting that... I hadn't seen those pictures. See, maybe it's indiosyncratic, but when I see this image, it says "anime" to me. The big ears, the "comic book" proportions, the giant upturning shoulderplates, the strappy leather look of the armor, the swirling energy nimbus that forms the background contrast, the fact that he's voguing outside of any background context, even the sword looks awfully big and like a Katana, etc.

Does that picture not suggest an "anime" influence? It does to me.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

I am a great fan of anime, and I would not say that the above image is reminiscent of the style anime is known for. The facial structure alone removes it from the artistic style of anime, and the body structure as well does not resemble almost any anime or manga drawings. You said that you are familar with Dragon Ball Z, so I would compare those drawings and character designs to that one, and the differences should be obvious.

What you seem to be identifying anime with is a general artistic style of color, flash, and over the top exaggerations present in the character style itself, which is not necessarily the case, as anime can be dark, stoic, clean, and without any of those above elements.

In other words, you seem to be criticizing more a style of art in and of itself, rather than a specific drawing or illustration style. Would you say that your criticism of the current art lies in the fact that the character designs, are, as above, loud, flashy, and exaggerated?

 

[Asmor]

That's fair. When I slam something as "anime" I'm thinking of DBZ, etc. My impression (which resident experts may wish to correct) is that things of that nature are the "norm" in anime.

I'm not going to say that DBZ is crap because, frankly, a lot of people like it and it's a runaway success by any standard. In addition, it's the last in a long line of anime "ambassadors," which include classics like Speed Racer and Robotech; animes which were basically the only example of the style on American television during their time, and which introduced lots of fans to it. I say DBZ is the last of the line because now (and in no small part due to DBZ's influence), anime is mainstream and there's lots of it all over the place, from the kid-friendly stuff like Naruto to even mature titles like Witch Hunter Robin.

All that said, DBZ is a very, very extreme example, with a whole lot of faults. I think there's even merit to the argument that it's done almost as much harm to the reputation of anime as it has good. DBZ is to anime in general as pro wrestling is to sports in general. It's severely dumbed down, "cool"-ed up, and intended to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

True, Miyazaki's works are among the pinnacle of the art form, but they're really not of uncommon quality. Give Cowboy Bebop a watch some time, it's one of my favorites.

Crap... I have to go. I swear I had a point somewhere, but it got lost.

 

[Wolfspider]

Thanks for posting that... I hadn't seen those pictures. See, maybe it's indiosyncratic, but when I see this image, it says "anime" to me. The big ears, the "comic book" proportions, the giant upturning shoulderplates, the strappy leather look of the armor, the swirling energy nimbus that forms the background contrast, the fact that he's voguing outside of any background context, even the sword looks awfully big and like a Katana, etc.

Does that picture not suggest an "anime" influence? It does to me.

I'm afraid I can't agree at all with you thinking this looks like what is commonly referred to as anime. His ears don't seem very big to me at all. In fact, they're smaller than Spock's! If you want to see big elf ears, look at the warcraft elves (or even Maielee). His proportions don't seem that off to me--they are a bit exaggerated, but nothing too serious at all. I've seen classic Conan artwork that was more ill-proportioned. Upturning shoulderplates? Blame the Dragon Highlords of Dragonlance fame for that...or, in fact, most of Elmore's art. The sword doesn't seem big to me at all. It seems like a normal scimitar, not a katana...the blade is gentle curved, and certainly doesn't have a wedge-point like a katana. The shape of the hilt screams scimitar to me.

Sorry. I'm not seeing it at all.