In the heat of battle, is hit point loss a wound?

In your mind, in the heat of a battle, what do hit points represent?


Mercutio01

First Post
Expecting them to perfectly model reality is asking a bit much, but I'd like them to at least wave at reality as it goes by and make some sort of effort to model it.

Lan-"the best design model is to go with reality until something - usually magic - says otherwise"-efan
Exactly!

I really dislike this notion that abundantly available magic gets a free pass to do extraordinary things in a game that presents those who do not possess magical talent as peers to Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers. Magic is a fictional construct that can be defined in whatever way we please. If a fighter is supposed to be an equally valued companion to a wizard or cleric than constraints need to be placed on the spell caster that makes the fighter just as valued.
The answer to this is limiting high level magic. If my daughters have unequal numbers of cookies, there are two ways to fix the problem. Provide more cookies so that there is an even split (which means providing too much WAHOO!) or taking away cookies. I know which one my daughters would prefer, but that doesn't make that the right answer.

There are two reasons I like magical healing to full after a night's rest while I hate non-magical healing.

  1. It's magic. It's a world where gods actually exist, people channel arcane energies to create fire from nothing, and intelligent creatures other than humans actually walk the ground. In a world where you can literally bring someone back from the dead, I have zero problems with gods granting someone the ability to heal wounds.
  2. The healing character has to expend valuable resources that are then not available for the rest of the day. No throwing out the "healstick wand of CLW" argument BS, because that's a separate issue that could easily be solved by some other means. Indeed, it's as simple as disallowing it, which I've done before and will likely do again. (It also was only an issue in 3E that didn't occur in 2E and before.)

I'm not asking for the world to go back and pretend 4E didn't happen. I'm asking for 5E to support my preferred playstyle. It's fine if they don't. I'll play something else. But if they'd like me to provide them with some of my disposable income, they'll need to find some way to go back and provide the playstyle that previous D&D editions supported, something 4E just didn't do. So far, even after playtesting, my only real gripe with 5E is the overnight healing to max HP/HD.
 
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Uller

Adventurer
Really?

Braves' Beachy to have Tommy John surgery - Yahoo! Sports

Why doesn't Gonzalez just yell at him and send him out to pitch?

D&D does not attempt to model long term debilitating injuries. If you want a system that does, you're talking about something that is not what D&D is or ever has been (not saying a wound system is not within scope of what 5e could end up being...but that's a different animal). Long term healing _sort of_ models this, but not really...after all you still can do everything as before.

In D&D you have characters that operate at full capacity with a pool of resources to resist an incapcitating injury, dying, stabilized and dead. I am all in favor of some additional "injured" state for those who want it and wounds for those who want those as long as I can happily ignore it.
 

Herschel

Adventurer
Really?

Braves' Beachy to have Tommy John surgery - Yahoo! Sports

Why doesn't Gonzalez just yell at him and send him out to pitch?

Why doesn't the trainer drive him to the nearest church and have the minister/priest heal him?

Hit points do not and have not ever modeled real world injuries, nor have they tried. Had Beachy pitched seven innings in 90-degree heat and gotten knocked around a bit, Gonzalez may give him a quick pep talk or say something to settle him down so he can get back in rhythm.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Why doesn't the trainer drive him to the nearest church and have the minister/priest heal him?

Hit points do not and have not ever modeled real world injuries, nor have they tried. Had Beachy pitched seven innings in 90-degree heat and gotten knocked around a bit, Gonzalez may give him a quick pep talk or say something to settle him down so he can get back in rhythm.

That would be a pep talk to increase morale, which I can totally agree with. Kind of like a paladin's aura giving a bonus to fear saves. But yelling at someone injured will not make them less injured. It might make a whiny brat who's faking an injury get up and play on. Or it might make the guy with the ankle injury play on and and end up crippled for life. In play, it lessens my character. If I'm hurt, and out of the fight, and simply yelling at me allows me to get up and fight on, I wasn't hurt too badly to fight, I'm merely a wimp, lying on my ass whining while the rest of my team is in danger. Some hero.

I'm aware that D&D doesn't model Tommy John surgery very well, lol. My point - stemming from this qoute -
Of course one of these things happens in the real world on battlefields,in sports, even at physical therapy everyday....
was that nothing in real life can be modeled by warlord yelling, either.
 

fenriswolf456

First Post
That would be a pep talk to increase morale, which I can totally agree with. Kind of like a paladin's aura giving a bonus to fear saves. But yelling at someone injured will not make them less injured. It might make a whiny brat who's faking an injury get up and play on. Or it might make the guy with the ankle injury play on and and end up crippled for life. In play, it lessens my character. If I'm hurt, and out of the fight, and simply yelling at me allows me to get up and fight on, I wasn't hurt too badly to fight, I'm merely a wimp, lying on my ass whining while the rest of my team is in danger. Some hero.

4E, at least to me, is very much about being cinematic. It's flashy, it's got lots of maneuvers and abilities for heroes to use, it gives characters a goodly amount of HP with which to have long exciting battles in it. One of the things I think it does fairly well is to emulate heroes taking a lot of damage over the course of an adventure, but to keep on going.

One of the tropes in cinematic adventure is the ability for heroes to find strength in the words of others. There are many scenes in which the hero is down and out, even dying, only to be brought back to consciousnesss/lucidity by the words of loved ones or allies. I recently rewatched Terminator, and near the end after their car flips, Kyle is injured and down for the count. Sarah finally orders him to his feet, and they manage to avoid getting run down by the Terminator. Kyle's wounds certainly aren't healed up, and yet he has gone from being all but unconscious to fully functional (as much as his wounds would allow, at any rate, but wounds are not part of D&D).

Now you could consider Kyle a 'wimp' for being overwhelmed by his wounds, or you can consider him as being even more a hero for overcoming the pain of his likely mortal wounds to keep on fighting, after some encouragement. How you perceive things is up to you. I prefer the latter, myself.

Now, this certainly isn't a perfect example, but I believe it to be an illustrative example of the inspiration behind the Warlord's abilities.

I'm aware that D&D doesn't model Tommy John surgery very well, lol. My point - stemming from this qoute - was that nothing in real life can be modeled by warlord yelling, either.

Then why bring up a point that has nothing to do with the system being talked about?

It's likely that a game that truly models real world injury and recovery would likely be unfun (except to a minority of players who do want that sort of thing in their games). D&D has always been rather fast paced, and even old school healing wasn't all that accurate to RL. We play to adventure, not to sit bandaged up in an inn.

I play with HP being abstract. It makes sense to me that when someone takes damage, that there is an emotional reaction to taking that damage as well and should be encapsulated in the damage total. Despair, worry, anger, fear, all of that comes into play, weakening the character overall and making them prone to possibly taking that fatal hit. So for me, a Warlord's 'healing' is perfectly valid.

Healing surges were a good core idea, and I think would have been better accepted if not for the extended rest rules. I'm currently using a house rule that if a character is dropped below 0 at some point during the adventuring day, they recover 1 less healing surge duing an extended rest. They won't get these lost surges back until they have a full day or two of actual relaxing rest (and not sleeping out in the woods or cold dungeon floor). Though going through Scales of War, it will likely be hard to judge if there's any real effect from this rule, as there's really only one or two extended rests in most of the modules.

And while I think the designers could certainly put in some wound/recovery system, I don't know if it would be as accurate or detailed enough for those who truly want it.
 






JRRNeiklot

First Post
Except it didn't, which has been quoted from books 74 ways 'til Sunday. The closest HP EVER got to being defined as representing wounds is the indexed blurbs in 2E. The full write-ups have never represented them as such.

Except where they did.

I'll not repost it here, but it's been shown in a number of threads quoting various passages of a half a dozen or more books that hit points have always been a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage. It's been that way from day one until 4e threw a wrench in things. Whenever you deduct from your hit points, you have sustained an injury. Period.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
I'll not repost it here, but it's been shown in a number of threads quoting various passages of a half a dozen or more books that hit points have always been a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage. It's been that way from day one until 4e threw a wrench in things. Whenever you deduct from your hit points, you have sustained an injury. Period.

Isn't there a difference between "Hit points are a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage" and "Each hit point is a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage"?

If I have a handful of tokens, which can be spent on a combination of items including food, beverages, and clothing... and I undertake a transaction which deducts from my handful of tokens... does that mean that I have purchased food, beverages, and clothing? Or, in other words, can it be said that "Whenever I deduct from my handful of tokens, I have purchased food"?

Even though the handful in total represents the potential to purchase any of those things, can't any given transaction omit one or more of the elements, without changing the definition of the total handful?

-Hyp.
 

HeinorNY

First Post
Whenever you deduct from your hit points, you have sustained an injury. Period.

I agree completely. But just because the loss of HP is caused by some type of injury, it doesn't mean the loss of HP represents that injury.
The loss of HPs represents other things caused by the injury, and the recovering of HPs represents mitigating them.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
Isn't there a difference between "Hit points are a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage" and "Each hit point is a combination of many things, one of those being actual damage"?

If I have a handful of tokens, which can be spent on a combination of items including food, beverages, and clothing... and I undertake a transaction which deducts from my handful of tokens... does that mean that I have purchased food, beverages, and clothing? Or, in other words, can it be said that "Whenever I deduct from my handful of tokens, I have purchased food"?

Even though the handful in total represents the potential to purchase any of those things, can't any given transaction omit one or more of the elements, without changing the definition of the total handful?

-Hyp.
The problem with this line of thinking is that everyone who argues from this point ignores that damage is part of that equation. In point of fact, just about everyone who argues for the HP = Mix has said that only that last hit point is actual damage, and even that is questionable in 4E since anyone can be healed non-magically from even negative HP.

Even if we allow for the idea that HP are a mix (as Gary noted in AD&D, but not, interestingly, in OD&D), when pressed, not a single one of the mix proponents has agreed to what the ratio is/should be, and, in a great many cases, thinks that even that is too complicated, and thus no hit point represents damage, at least by 4E's standards. Again, because any hit ever in 4E can be healed non-magically instantaneously, something that couldn't happen in any other edition of D&D.

Edited to add: It's a playstyle difference. 4E wants to allow for "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "The Avengers" as default game modes. That's not my playstyle. It hasn't been my preferred playstyle for D&D ever. There are other systems for me when I do want to go gonzo Looney-Tunes-Daffy-Duck-shotgun-to-the-face-instant-healing. D&D wasn't that for me, until 4E forced that playstyle (among other things, such as separating player actions from character actions--AEDU for example). Which is why I abandoned 4E after salivating during the run up, being a part-time player in the power card design mock-ups, buying the core books, and playing for a year. I found that 4E's prescribed gameplay wasn't what I wanted. If 5E is to get my money, it needs to provide the ability to play the way I have since I first started gaming. That means creator-designed rules, not Rule 0 corrections on my part. If it's going to rely on house rules, I'll play a version of the game where I don't have to do that and save myself the time and trouble.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
The problem with this line of thinking is that everyone who argues from this point ignores that damage is part of that equation. In point of fact, just about everyone who argues for the HP = Mix has said that only that last hit point is actual damage, and even that is questionable in 4E since anyone can be healed non-magically from even negative HP.

ainatan above you doesn't appear to be arguing that, and I think ainatan's position is similar to mine:

I don't mind someone being on maximum hit points without all evidence of physical damage they previously sustained (along with lost hit points) having vanished.

If I lost ten hit points, narrated as cuts and bruises from a skirmish with goblins, and then the Warlord gives me a pep talk which game-mechanically restores ten hit points, then a/ I'm at max hit points, and b/ I have a bunch of cuts and bruises.

-Hyp.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
ainatan above you doesn't appear to be arguing that, and I think ainatan's position is similar to mine:

I don't mind someone being on maximum hit points without all evidence of physical damage they previously sustained (along with lost hit points) having vanished.
Then what, exactly, does being at full HP really mean? I think it, again, is a playstyle preference difference. I'm not interested in changing the way I play/narrate D&D. You are fine with HP not representing wounds. I'm not. I'm not changing my preferences just because one (and only one so far) edition of D&D says I have to. I'll play one of the others (and there's no lack of those) where I can continue to play the way I always have. Again, this is about whether or not WotC can win my money by providing a product I want to support (and, in all honesty, I'm pretty positive I'll pick up the core three no matter what) but keeping the playstyle that 4E created is not the way to get my money. It's not my playstyle. I don't like it.

If I lost ten hit points, narrated as cuts and bruises from a skirmish with goblins, and then the Warlord gives me a pep talk which game-mechanically restores ten hit points, then a/ I'm at max hit points, and b/ I have a bunch of cuts and bruises.

-Hyp.
See, that's a situation that's ripe for temporary HP, in my experience and my opinion. You can ignore the pain for awhile, but after awhile, the cuts and bruises are still there, probably after the adrenaline has worn off.

That's how I'd have handled the Warlord. And I think you'd have avoided a great portion of people pissed off at Warlord shout-heals.
 
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jadrax

Adventurer
(as Gary noted in AD&D, but not, interestingly, in OD&D)
I don't believe they realised anyone would really interpret them any other way.

As Tim Kask put it, 'Hit points are not bruises and slices and contusions and fractures causing you to stagger and your knees to turn to 3-day-old celery stalks. HP’s are the number of those whacks you can take before being kayoed. HP’s are the cat’s nine lives, the number of times it can do something horribly dangerous and not die. HP’s are a quantification of the number of times you can keep Marcus Mercenary from piercing you in that fatal spot. 2 HP’s No problem, no staggers no reeling on your pins; you’re just that much closer to running out of luck and feeling 10 inches of finely-honed steel stab into your vitals.'

And he was sat at the table when Hit Points were created.
 

Mercutio01

First Post
I don't believe they realised anyone would really interpret them any other way.

As Tim Kask put it, 'Hit points are not bruises and slices and contusions and fractures causing you to stagger and your knees to turn to 3-day-old celery stalks. HP’s are the number of those whacks you can take before being kayoed. HP’s are the cat’s nine lives, the number of times it can do something horribly dangerous and not die. HP’s are a quantification of the number of times you can keep Marcus Mercenary from piercing you in that fatal spot. 2 HP’s No problem, no staggers no reeling on your pins; you’re just that much closer to running out of luck and feeling 10 inches of finely-honed steel stab into your vitals.'

And he was sat at the table when Hit Points were created.
Oh, gee, silly us. I mean, how else would people define "hit" "hit point" "damage" "heal"? It would be totally absurd to use the standard agreed upon dictionary definition of those words, wouldn't it?
 

Mercutio01

First Post
I've just found the single best post on hit points in D&D that I've ever read.

Hitpoints just don't make sense. Gygax's description of what they represent is not an explanation of how they work, it's a justification after the fact. And it's a lousy justification.
I think that's probably the best description of what happened, so I'll just continue to use my justification that fits my preferred playstyle, and to not play the games that don't fit my playstyle.

Link
 

Uller

Adventurer
Even if we allow for the idea that HP are a mix (as Gary noted in AD&D, but not, interestingly, in OD&D), when pressed, not a single one of the mix proponents has agreed to what the ratio is/should be

Because that's the point of abstraction (for HP, round length, position, monetary systems, etc). It frees the DM and players to imagine the game in a way that makes sense at the moment and keep it manageable.

What proportion of a round does a character actually spend in the square he is in on the grid (or how far does he wander from his space in TotM if you prefer that)? Surely there is no agreement on that because just like HP it's an abstraction that people vary the answers for as needed.

Is a round always exactly 10 seconds (or whatever it is) or is it just an abstraction of a small increment of time that is convenient for modelling turns that varies? If it is always really 10 seconds you are saying that all characters every where have the same rate of attacks, spell casting, etc. Really?
 

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