In the heat of battle, is hit point loss a wound?

[HeinorNY]

Ok. Then please show me the army medics who go into the field with a megaphone, boom boxes and a pack of motivational posters as equipment.

Why would they do that? You can't heal a wound with boom boxes and motivational posters, that's silly.

 

[Lalato]

This isn't true in D&D, or in real life. Many life-threatening injuries heal themselves with time, no surgery required. In D&D, all injuries heal themselves given time.

time and/or magic

In D&D it doesn't matter how often you're below 0 HP... you can bounce back to your normal self in record time... even if penalties are applied... you can bounce back to 100% effectiveness and HP. Heck, even if you have a condition from a disease or some other source, you can bounce back from it pretty easily.

In the real world... I broke my leg and arm (and am still recovering), I doubt very much that I'll ever be back to 100% effectiveness. Even though I now have metal in my leg and arm, and I probably will never break those particular bones again, there will always be something that holds me back a teensy bit from 100%.

In order to actually get back to even 99% effectiveness, do I just rest and wait for everything to heal? No... I rested for the first 6 weeks. After that, I actually have to start working to get my muscle back... so it's not like I can just lay in bed all day and suddenly get back to full health. Nope. I have to exert myself in order to get back to full health. How's that for turning D&D healing on itself?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

So you're saying D&D hit points don't model real-life battlefield injuries well? I don't think you'll get much of an argument there. Hit points are very abstract, and expecting them to model reality is foolish.

As is expecting them to completely disregard reality. I want something in the middle. Healing overnight ain't it.

 

[HeinorNY]

Healing overnight ain't it.

Only if you consider HP gain = wounds disappear.

 

[pemerton]

As I recall a bard can actually mock you to death, which I think is awesome.

I like this too - it seems to me closer to the sort of magic one sees in Celtic and Nordic writings than traditional D&D magic.

I tend to think of it as the bard reciting a derivisive verse, which undermines your self confidence (if you're a conscious being) and undercuts your metaphysical constitution. In the case of oozes, the verse would be one that mocks Juiblex; in the case of undead, one that mocks Orcus or Vecna; etc.

 

[Lanefan]

So you're saying D&D hit points don't model real-life battlefield injuries well? I don't think you'll get much of an argument there. Hit points are very abstract, and expecting them to model reality is foolish.

Expecting them to perfectly model reality is asking a bit much, but I'd like them to at least wave at reality as it goes by and make some sort of effort to model it.

Lan-"the best design model is to go with reality until something - usually magic - says otherwise"-efan

 

[Campbell]

I really dislike this notion that abundantly available magic gets a free pass to do extraordinary things in a game that presents those who do not possess magical talent as peers to Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers. Magic is a fictional construct that can be defined in whatever way we please. If a fighter is supposed to be an equally valued companion to a wizard or cleric than constraints need to be placed on the spell caster that makes the fighter just as valued. High level play need not devolve into an arms race of magical ability vs. magical countermeasure (looking at you mind blank, true seeing, death ward). If spell resistance and anti-magic fields are necessary to make a fighter feel valued there is something wrong with the game.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Lan-"the best design model is to go with reality until something - usually magic - says otherwise"-efan

Being higher than 4th level is magic.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I really dislike this notion that abundantly available magic gets a free pass to do extraordinary things in a game that presents those who do not possess magical talent as peers to Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers.

But isn't that what magic is all about? Making the impossible possible? What can those who do not have such magic do to be on equal footing with their magical counterparts?

Magic is a fictional construct that can be defined in whatever way we please. If a fighter is supposed to be an equally valued companion to a wizard or cleric than constraints need to be placed on the spell caster that makes the fighter just as valued.

I think this goes two ways. The wizard does need to be constrained, but the fighter also needs to be raised. Personally, I think it should be more difficult for a wizard to cast spells in combat. Keeping up a rate of 5 spells in 5 rounds should not be typical, regardless of at-will magic. There should be times in combat where wizards know they are in too much danger to risk casting a spell. Spellcasting should not be the automatic action it has become in the most recent editions.

However, I think two of the biggest issues with the fighter are:
- The rogue has sucked out the natural room for the fighter to be highly skilled (and has sucked out the room for all characters to be highly skilled). I would love to see the rogue as a derivative of the fighter with a suitable background/theme.
- The fighter as a possible leader (ala warlord) should be encouraged (and at this stage is not). With this, the fighter should be hitting but they should also be getting an additional effect that their allies can use to their advantage. Opening up battle management for the fighter is a very important area of design space I would like to see taken advantage of.

High level play need not devolve into an arms race of magical ability vs. magical countermeasure (looking at you mind blank, true seeing, death ward). If spell resistance and anti-magic fields are necessary to make a fighter feel valued there is something wrong with the game.

High level 3.x play is certainly it's own beast. I think if the fighter is taking on an important social role (a leader of men and cities), then their capacity to bring along armies with them can be very important. This is of a scale completely different to regular play. I think Sepulchrave's Wyre stories on these boards encapsulate this perfectly.

However, this style is certainly not what many players are after and the fighter in such circumstances will usually be left very far behind.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Campbell]

But isn't that what magic is all about? Making the impossible possible? What can those who do not have such magic do to be on equal footing with their magical counterparts?

This is a hard question to answer. In part I think you really need to respect the space of what defines the martial character. A fighter is not just someone who knows how to use a sword. They dedicate a significant portion of their mental energy towards different ways to kill people. They can see combat play out in their head before it happens. Martial characters are hyper focused. No spell caster can match them in their area of expertise without dedicating a significant portion of their allotted power and then not for very long.

Another element of the equation in my mind is removing the ability for spell casters to completely reinvent themselves everyday. They shouldn't be as focused as martial characters, but they should have to chose a couple areas to excel in. 5e Domains are a step in the right direction here. Generally I'm fine with plot magic like teleport, turn undead, planar travel, raise dead, some healing and the like. It's one area where casters can differentiate themselves without stepping on toes. It's spells like knock, long term invisibility, and powerful combat magic that make martial PCs blush that I take issue with. Spell casters should have an edge in a single encounter, but not too strong of one.

Another area that can easily improve upon things as they stand is to embrace the supernatural elements of hybrids like monks, paladins, etc. You can justify a lot more interesting abilities if a paladin is more than a fighter with smite evil and a few weak divine spells. Give them some flexible mechanics all their own.

The final element for me is the level playing field of mechanically interesting play. Skill use and combat need to at least be as interesting of a challenge for fighters and rogues as spell management is for casters. Through whatever mechanical means martial PCs need the ability to make interesting decisions that have real opportunity costs. Smart play needs to be rewarded from all participants.

I think this goes two ways. The wizard does need to be constrained, but the fighter also needs to be raised. Personally, I think it should be more difficult for a wizard to cast spells in combat. Keeping up a rate of 5 spells in 5 rounds should not be typical, regardless of at-will magic. There should be times in combat where wizards know they are in too much danger to risk casting a spell. Spellcasting should not be the automatic action it has become in the most recent editions.

However, I think two of the biggest issues with the fighter are:
- The rogue has sucked out the natural room for the fighter to be highly skilled (and has sucked out the room for all characters to be highly skilled). I would love to see the rogue as a derivative of the fighter with a suitable background/theme.
- The fighter as a possible leader (ala warlord) should be encouraged (and at this stage is not). With this, the fighter should be hitting but they should also be getting an additional effect that their allies can use to their advantage. Opening up battle management for the fighter is a very important area of design space I would like to see taken advantage of.

This is good stuff. I'd XP but I need to spread. Part of the issue here is that so far there has been reluctance for the rules to address what is happening in the wider fiction. I think at a certain level you need to move past the game rules only handling personal action resolution. I favor something similar to FantasyCraft's Reputation mechanics with an edge given to martial characters to reflect that they're more active in the world than spell casters tend to be as absorbed in magic and religious politics as they tend to be.

High level 3.x play is certainly it's own beast. I think if the fighter is taking on an important social role (a leader of men and cities), then their capacity to bring along armies with them can be very important. This is of a scale completely different to regular play. I think Sepulchrave's Wyre stories on these boards encapsulate this perfectly.

However, this style is certainly not what many players are after and the fighter in such circumstances will usually be left very far behind.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

I'm also a fan believe it or not. Probably wouldn't be interested in playing a game like that, but it makes for good fiction. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the fact that Eadric occupies the same level of relevance in the fiction as a near godling as Mostin does.