In the Spotlight: 4th edition and DPR

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In 3.5, I was playing an "invincible wizard", using mainly save-or-suffer spells.

I got more cheers when we got attacked by weak zombies and I killed them all with a Fireball than with my better spells. Except that one time I petrified someone mid-fight

I guess it's psychology.

 

[MerricB]

FS: Do not agree, at all.

Multi-target healing and buffing from the cleric is totally noticed. This is right at the top of the list. Control affects that hit multiple targets and or have a sustained or dramatic non-damage component are very much noticed. Lockdown that clearly foils the target is noticed (and really annoying). Nice combinations of actions, usually featuring an action point, are noticed. Even movement and skill use in combat are notable at the table, under the right circumnstances.

Big hits may or may not actually be such a big deal, unless something else is added (its a crit, a hard to set up sneak attack, happens to drop the target...).

Absolutely. We had a Warlock in our group - the striker who gets condemned for not having a high enough DPR. What did he do? He went very controller-route, and would lock down solos and elite monsters so they couldn't use any of their better powers. Or would give up his standard actions so that *they* couldn't use standard actions. Quite frustrating for me as a DM, but the party loved him.

When I throw a lot of minions at the group, those able to affect lots of creatures at once shine. The one character-type that doesn't really put themselves out there is the defender, but the players really, really miss them when they're gone. We just added a new defender to our epic game, and though he's not doing the DPR of the thief, his ability to draw attention AND STAY STANDING is incredible.

Yeah - it's definitely a group game.

Cheers!

 

[pemerton]

Even within the combat component of the game, I find that the spotlight is not unduly upon strikers. The group I GM has two strikers - a drow sorcerer and an elven ranger-cleric, with the sorcerer being the bigger hitter - but I think the single most prominent character in combat would be the polearm fighter, who plays as a melee controller (Footwork Lure, Come and Get It, Polearm Momentum and Gamble, Deadly Draw, etc - he is always attacking multiple targets and moving them and/or knocking them prone).

The wizard also makes a noticeable impact from time to time - like when he used Twist of Space to teleport a catoblepas into the air so that it dropped onto a couple of enemy cultists, or in our last session when he used Wall of Fire to reshape the battlefield to give the PCs some sort of chance in a fight the players are worried might be a TPK.

I think this is due to actual time spent in play at the table - the strikers' turns tend to be quick (identify target(s), roll dice, apply damage) whereas the controllers' turns tend to be slower, as there is more tactical thinking involved.

Then there is spotlight time outside of combat, which has nothing to do with DPR and which I think is reasonably evenly shared at my table.

 

[Unwise]

In my game I would say the spotlight is on the Defender. Everyone else positions in such a way as to make use of the Knight's defensive features. They all want him to win initiative so he can lock down the enemies. Once he drops everything turns out very badly for them.

In my past game the defender was a Swordmage and he really got the spotlight a lot. He had lots of cool interrupts that teleported creatures around and stopped people getting hurt.

 

[babinro]

The people I play with learned early on that conditions are what win combats. The all stars are those that lay conditions at range, namely Warlock, Wizard and Psion. All strikers tend to take their lowest damage powers so long as a condition is attached. The idea being that their striker damage is applied even on a 1(w) power and the condition means more than an extra couple of dice in the long run.

Immobilized, dazed, stunned, dominated and -x to attacks are what I see applied over and over again to my monsters leading to cripple offense against the PC's.

Defenders have always gotten the least love in my group. Though I personally really enjoyed the fighter I played when I didn't DM.

 

[Obryn]

If your players are focusing only on strikers, they are completely and totally overlooking how essential the controllers, leaders, and defenders are to allowing those strikers to shine.

4e is a team game. Strikers may be your star running backs, but it shows a lack of insight to think their contributions are more significant than the offensive line's.

-O

 

[Kzach]

At the end of the day it's all about taking away the creatures HP and killing the thing. This is where your DPR shines in the light and since this is probably 99% of all combats then I see the king as hogging the spotlight no matter what.

I think that's more a problem with you or your group than it is with the system. I've only experienced this 'DPR Spotlight' problem in a couple of groups who all put an emphasis on DPR. Go figure that they'd only be interested in who does the highest?

I've played in other groups where my characters have shone in defender, leader and controller roles just as much as striker roles. And I've seen the same with other players. It just depends on the group and the players.

 

[Pickles JG]

I find it depends a fair bit. When people play defenders as bad DPR then the good DPR guys get noticed. Killing a monster before it acts can be very game changing but so can denying it actions for a couple of rounds or clumping mobs into AOE friendly areas.

One thing I have noticed is doing 250 damage spread over 5 monsters gets a a lot less notice than doing 120 to one.

 

[KarinsDad]

If your players are focusing only on strikers, they are completely and totally overlooking how essential the controllers, leaders, and defenders are to allowing those strikers to shine.

4e is a team game. Strikers may be your star running backs, but it shows a lack of insight to think their contributions are more significant than the offensive line's.

Although what you say is true, people are people.

They enjoy what they enjoy.

I have told my players to play what they want to play. The only required role ime is a leader because healing is the main advantage that PCs have over NPCs, so if the players do not take a leader, I will use the DMG guidelines to supply one.

Our current group has:

Human Semi-lazy Warlord
Elven Thief
Dwarven Hybrid Fighter|Barbarian
Human Scout
Human Hunter
Eladrin Bladesinger
Dwarven Slayer

For all intents and purposes, the Warlord is (mostly) a striker because she gives extra attacks to the other strikers, the Thief is a striker, the Fighter|Barbarian is a striker, the Scout is a striker, the Hunter is a partial striker (shooting against the same foe with a group of melee strikers with Aspect of the Pack Wolf), the Bladesinger is a partial striker (2 rounds of Bladesong plus bladespell power), and the Slayer is a striker.

Every player arranged for his or her PC to do striker level damage, at least part of the time.

So, it seems like our group is 2 controllers, a defender|striker, a leader, and 3 strikers, but our group of players has decided that the ultimate form of control is death. A dead foe (typically) doesn't fight back.

The group doesn't (typically) need a lot of healing because it wipes foes out so quickly that the foes don't get enough attacks to force the group to heal (course, last week, I threw an N+4 encounter at them where they took damage if they did damage and it really threw them for a loop ).

 

[Incenjucar]

As a very tactical player with a flair for the dramatic, I get more than enough spotlight time with my invoker

When I'm not slowing the whole room AND moving all my allies with a mere encounter power, or forcing enemies to take damage or just put their hands in their pockets, or blinding AND dazing them, or STUNNING them... and then forcing them to reroll a save if they manage to make one (everyone loves it when I tell the DM "NO. Roll again.") then I use my druid multiclass to turn into a tiger and smack someone around directly.

And now that we just hit paragon... bwahahahahaha