In the Spotlight: 4th edition and DPR

[Infiniti2000]

We have non-combat sessions all the time and we are some of the most tactical oriented groups out there. What's your point?

The point was self-explanatory. If you have non-combat sessions, then by definition the DPR king cannot hog the spotlight as you indicate in the OP. Because this would contradict your point, I made the obvious connection you had no non-combat encounters. The only alternative is that your first post was in error or you don't have non-combat encounters.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

That's exactly what you said in the OP and what this thread is about.

There is a big difference between "What I "really" see and What I "always" see." Now if I had said "I always see the DP kings as the ones in the spotlight" then your statement would have been a fact.

I am fully aware that there are times when the others do shine, if you actually read more of my posts then you would have seen that instead of trying to focus on one thing, in which you still misunderstood.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point was self-explanatory. If you have non-combat sessions, then by definition the DPR king cannot hog the spotlight as you indicate in the OP. Because this would contradict your point, I made the obvious connection you had no non-combat encounters. The only alternative is that your first post was in error or you don't have non-combat encounters.

Many striker and nova classes have a lot of different skills. So by definition, they should be able to hog the spotlight a bit in combat and still have their fair share of non-combat spotlight.

Your point appears to be irrelevant since it assumes that a DPR king cannot take the spotlight in a fair share of non-combat sessions which is obviously flawed.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The point was self-explanatory. If you have non-combat sessions, then by definition the DPR king cannot hog the spotlight as you indicate in the OP. Because this would contradict your point, I made the obvious connection you had no non-combat encounters. The only alternative is that your first post was in error or you don't have non-combat encounters.

Actually we aren't even talking about non-combat. In any role playing game no matter what it is or edition of D&D everyone can shine when it comes to role playing. That's actually very obvious so why even mention it? What goes on outside of combat from a role playing perspective has nothing to do with the mechanics of a game unless you are doing skill challenges and besides, the title clearly says DPR and we all know DPR has nothing to do with out of combat.

 

[MarkB]

DPR is still king in these situations. A dead foe cannot screw up the PCs.

But, on the other hand, a screwed-up DPR specialist may not be able to apply that DPR. In many cases, locking down foes or buffing/de-conditioning allies is what allows them to do that damage, instead of finding themselves neutered for round after round.

 

[KarinsDad]

But, on the other hand, a screwed-up DPR specialist may not be able to apply that DPR. In many cases, locking down foes or buffing/de-conditioning allies is what allows them to do that damage, instead of finding themselves neutered for round after round.

A screwed-up leader may not be able to buff or de-condition.

A screwed-up controller or defender may not be able to lock down a foe.

The conditions that affect the DPR specialist can also affect the other types of specialists.

The ability to have more options than just doing damage is important, but the elimination of a foe in 4E is almost always due to damage. It's the damage that is typically the ultimate decider of how fast foes drop.

A group with few ways to buff, de-condition, or lock down foes but with many ways to do a lot of damage will still typically win because of action economy.

A group with few ways to do a lot of damage but many ways to buff, de-condition, or lock down foes will tend to have longer drawn out encounters where they give the monsters more opportunities to wipe them out, especially since monster damage was increased last year.

 

[Pentius]

DPR is still king in these situations. A dead foe cannot screw up the PCs.

I immediately thought of monsters that explode when they hit 0.

 

[pemerton]

To verify this, go play Lair Assault.

Your posts are interesting for their analysis, but I'm one of those who thinks that Lair Assault is only one model for play. When the GM is designing or adapting encounters and scenarios for a particular group of players at his/her table, there are so many ways to respond to particular PC builds and particular player choices that I don't think there is any single form of optimal party design.

In any role playing game no matter what it is or edition of D&D everyone can shine when it comes to role playing. That's actually very obvious so why even mention it? What goes on outside of combat from a role playing perspective has nothing to do with the mechanics of a game unless you are doing skill challenges

This seems to imply that roleplaying is irrelevant in combat, or other situations being resolved via application of the action resolution mechanics. I don't agree with that implication.

 

[Pentius]

I never said anything about other roles not being on the spotlight. I've noticed, from a personal stand point, that those other moments from other roles are quickly forgotten.

Even when we reminisce about battles from earlier 4th edition games, it's always: "Hey remember when Joe the Barbarian did 200 points of damage in one round to that boss?"

Sounds like a group thing. Most groups I've played with remember scenarios, not numbers. Things like, "Remember when half the party was dead and Kyle's paladin held the door so the survivors could get out, and it would have killed him, but for the sorcerer's wind spell that dragged him out with them?"

 

[mneme]

Sounds like a group thing. Most groups I've played with remember scenarios, not numbers. Things like, "Remember when half the party was dead and Kyle's paladin held the door so the survivors could get out, and it would have killed him, but for the sorcerer's wind spell that dragged him out with them?"

Doesn't even have to be positive things. I was getting ragged about my 1st level 3.5 rogue falling out of a tree for well over the next two years; that kind of experience crosses editions, and people remember the unusual things.

Big numbers do have a lot of appeal; when someone manages to hit those numbers, particularly at a level where they're unusual, they will leave an impact. But the substantial impact is story level; "remember when bob rolled two crits in a row?" will certainly stick as a gambler story; "remember when fred rolled two crits in a row just when he needed to" even more, but to some degree it will be remembered as "remember when fred took the displacer from damaged to dead in two hits?"

Different roles/classes -do- have different things they do that will get remembered, and dramatic necessity matters a lot. I mean, if the wizard basically owns an encounter by dropping Visions of Avarice and the party escapes without a scratch, that will probably not be remembered. But if the monster shows up, bloodies half the party on its first action, and -then- the wizard owns with with VoI, well, -that- will be remembered; it's just gone from "not much of an enounter" to "omg, the wizard just saved our bacon". Similarly, I remember (and it's not hard to set up in 4e in essence, though the details would change) the time when, playing 3.5, the party was facing off against a solo -- the "snow queen", and her army of frost wolves. The 3rd level wizard made her caster level check to read a scroll of wall of fire -- and dropped it across half the throne room, isolating the party, the queen, and a couple of the wolves from the rest of the wolves; the party then managed (barely) to defeat the queen before the wolves were able to rejoin the battle (and once the queen was gone, the battle was over, as this was the classic "evil snow queen is stopping the seasons from changing" setup). What do we remember from it? Not my wizard/rogue tumbling over the queen's head and shocking grasping her from the back (though that was awesome) -- but that wall of fire, that turned an impossible fight into a suddenly possible one.

In the end, it's all about two things (if you're talking memorability):

1. Is it unusual? Even if it's awesome, if you do it every day, or worse, every fight, nobody cares. The avenger who starts every fight with tempus/oath/charge? Sure, It'll do a lot of damage, but nobody will care unless he crits (and even then, probably not so much if he's using Dice of Cheese to do so). But double-crits, or enemies getting pushed into traps, or clever uses of attacks that suddenly change the battlefield -and- do a lot of damage will start to hit.

2. Do we care? This is more about dramatic timing; if the party hasn't learned to fear the enemy, they're not really going to care if you knock the enemy's kneecaps out. This is true for any role; whether it's strikers killing, controllers or defenders nullifying, or healers reversing, or battle healers inspiring.