5E Inappropriate breasts on female monsters

Savage Wombat

Adventurer
Since we're striving for realism here, I'm sure you all also agree that WotC should move D&D back to the days of limiting female characters to a lower Strength score too, right?


... do I need a sarcasm tag here?
 

Desalus

Villager
Dude. It's a fantasy race. If you really need "realism" then accept that they're not reptiles, they're HUMANOIDS.
Dude. I pointed that out because Crothian mentioned four characteristics and of those four breasts were the only example that was completely alien to dragons (edit: I guess having no tail also counts). Besides, saying 'everything goes' just because it is fantasy is a huge cop-out. Are we not allowed to question aspects of artistic character design that don't make logical sense? For a case in point, in the thread I quoted, WoTC was experimenting with the artistic depiction of female Dragonborns so obviously they asked the same question I just did.

Also, Thri-Kreen are HUMANOIDS, so why don't the females have breasts?
 
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Nellisir

Adventurer
I don't think any of you are getting @HardcoreDandDGirl 's point.
She's not saying it makes sense that females of nonhuman species have breasts, nor that all female humans have breasts. All she's saying is that giving female members of non-human species breasts helps them appeal to the majority of female gamers who do have breasts and can therefore relate to them more easily.
I get that perfectly. She didn't ask if I "got" it. She didn't ask if I understood it. (I do; it makes sense.) She didn't ask if I agree with it. (not being female, I can't say from personal experience and I haven't had a chance to ask my female players.)

I understood her question to be, in essence, whether or not I would care if the situation were reversed. And my answer is no, I wouldn't care. Thri-kreen (which yes, I've played) are an existing D&D player race with no real comparison to human sexual features. Lizardmen are another (though the name biases the issue).

I'm glad the three of you are open-minded about playing 'the other,' but I've met enough male gamers who only play male characters to say that if the PHB explicitly stated that male elves don't have penises, it would give them more than a few seconds' pause.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally rigging up a straw man or not, but the question wasn't whether or not characters should have any sexual characteristics; it was about appropriate sexual characteristics. Nobody has said that elven women shouldn't have breasts. The block and tackle of an elven gentleman is as appropriate as the bubblie-jubblies of an elven lady. Following your logic all the way out, illustrating thri-kreen with penile sheathes and beards will make them more appealing to your invisible male majority.

The presence of breasts on reptilians and constructs in D&D artwork still doesn't bother me, though.
 
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Elderbrain

Guest
I didn't start this thread thinking that female gamers would take offense, but apparently I was wrong. I actually thought female gamers would regard putting breasts on every PC race, regardless of type, as sexist! After all, male PCs aren't drawn with big, prominent bulges in the crotch area to "prove" they're male... where do we draw the line? If Treants become a PC race at some point, should the artist draw tree boobs? (And if Dragonborn get breasts, why not Dragons? Tiamat is sure to demand the largest pair, seeing as she is Queen of Dragons... :cool:)
 

Jester David

Adventurer
I'm okay with minotaurs having breasts, as they're a mix of human and bovine.
I'll buy the shardminds, as they're swarms of crystal mimicking human form, so they might adopt body shape and secondary sex characteristics if it appeals to them.
Dragonborn. Okay, that's just plain silly. They're not mammals, they lay eggs, and reptiles are noted for being awkward to identify sexually, being a process even for trained vets. That's just artists being weird.
 

Nellisir

Adventurer
If 4th edition Minotaurs had been portrayed as having human chests (I.e no fur), then it might have looked more plausabile. But 4th ed Minotaurs are basically Bulls standing upright, albeit with furry arms and legs. In other words, they look like animals both top and bottom, unlike (say) Merfolk which have clearly Human-looking upper halves. And Dragonborn are the spawn of Dragons, which definitely don't have breasts. Anyway, what male anatomy...? Aside from bulging muscles, I have yet to see a D&D monster with a penis (or even a noticeable bulge drawn in the pants).
Visual masculine cues include pronounced musculature, a V-shaped shoulder/chest/waist structure, and a host of facial stuff that I'm not going to list. The minotaurs, even the 4e ones, definitely track as humanesque in proportion and structure. An upright bovine would have a massively protruding sternum.


I can't believe you people are making me google "cow sternum" at 12:30 AM. :erm:
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
If 4th edition Minotaurs had been portrayed as having human chests (I.e no fur), then it might have looked more plausabile. But 4th ed Minotaurs are basically Bulls standing upright, albeit with furry arms and legs.
You had a case in D&D3 when someone decided minotaurs were just shaggy horned ogres, and had nothing to do with bovines. But in D&D4 they're pretty clearly cow-headed people.

I know guys who are furrier than the D&D4 minotaur.
 

Elf Witch

Villager
I am a female gamer I like realistic style of art. So I don't like dragon boobs because dragons don't nurse babies so why have them. I think dragons should be drawn gender neutral making it hard to tell just what sex they are. I feel that way about most lizard type creatures. Now if they are humanoids or mammals that is different.

I do have a peeve that some gamers try and lump all female gamers as being a hive mind we are not we run the gamut the same as male players when it comes to things.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
Thri-kreen (which yes, I've played) are an existing D&D player race with no real comparison to human sexual features. Lizardmen are another (though the name biases the issue).
And I think it's great that these species are options for you. I know people for whom they are not, because they are too alien, which is really the crux of this entire discussion.

I'm not sure if you're intentionally rigging up a straw man or not, but the question wasn't whether or not characters should have any sexual characteristics; it was about appropriate sexual characteristics. Nobody has said that elven women shouldn't have breasts.
That's not exactly what I'm saying. I picked the elf because it's a race that already has a bad rap for femininity in certain circles. The fact that they are mammals is irrelevant. Let's take another example and consider that the PHB says dragonborn males have spiked hemipenes. That's potentially biologically accurate but it is going to weird people out. I understand why a female reptilian character not having breasts might weird people out, despite it being biologically accurate.

Does that make more sense?

Nellisir said:
The presence of breasts on reptilians and constructs in D&D artwork still doesn't bother me, though.
Oddly, it does kind of bother me, and it always has. But I fully understand why it was done, so I don't bother railing against it.
 

nomotog

Villager
It bothers me with dragonborn, so when I play one I tend to go for one that looks more lizard like.

Udders would just look silly on a minotaurs . I mean a minotaurs is meant to be this big strong beast. Udders kind of ruin that.
 
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Talath

Villager
I am a female gamer I like realistic style of art. So I don't like dragon boobs because dragons don't nurse babies so why have them. I think dragons should be drawn gender neutral making it hard to tell just what sex they are. I feel that way about most lizard type creatures. Now if they are humanoids or mammals that is different.

I do have a peeve that some gamers try and lump all female gamers as being a hive mind we are not we run the gamut the same as male players when it comes to things.
I agree that women as a group should not be represented as having one position. Furthermore, I feel that the decision of whether non-mammalian races have breasts should be left up to the player, in order that every player can represent themselves as they wish. Normally I would say character issues are between the DM and the player, but I don't feel that DMs should have much (if any) say in how a player represents facets of a characters identity, especially involving gender presentation, orientation, and so on.
 

Hussar

Legend
[QU OTE=nomotog;6394103]It bothers me with dragonborn, so when I play one I tend to go for one that looks more lizard like.

Utters would just look silly on a minotaurs . I mean a minotaurs is meant to be this big strong beast. Utters kind of ruin that.[/QUOTE]

You say that utters udderly ruin the look. :D
 

Thank Dog

Villager
Visual masculine cues include pronounced musculature, a V-shaped shoulder/chest/waist structure, and a host of facial stuff that I'm not going to list. The minotaurs, even the 4e ones, definitely track as humanesque in proportion and structure. An upright bovine would have a massively protruding sternum.
Well that's just gender prejudice. Bishōnen males everywhere are now offended. You have offended Justin Bieber and 90% of the Japanese male population.

I am a female gamer I like realistic style of art. So I don't like dragon boobs because dragons don't nurse babies so why have them. I think dragons should be drawn gender neutral making it hard to tell just what sex they are. I feel that way about most lizard type creatures. Now if they are humanoids or mammals that is different.
I think people are relying too heavily on the assumptions that are borne of a very vague and mostly osmosis based understanding of reptilian and mammalian biology. I mean, if you're going to use "reptiles don't lactate" as a reason to hate on dragon-boobs, then you should probably actually understand the evolution of lactation. There are birds and fish that lactate. OMG! And there are mammals which lay eggs. NOWAI! Mammals and reptiles are evolutionary branches within the same tree and simply evolved different methods of gestation. Lactation is believed to have evolved as a means to keep eggs moist. Wrap that concept around yah noggin.

So, really, ultimately, realistically, the entire debate is kinda silly. Dragonboobs are just as legitimate as dragonborn females without boobs. Neither is "realistic" since dragonborn don't exist. And if they did, and they evolved from dragons, then they could've done so in a way that quite legitimately led to lactation, and even if they didn't... magic!
 
Does it bug you when creatures that logically shouldn't have breasts are illustrated with them in D&D art? In the previous edition, Dragonborn, Minotaurs and Shard born females were all given breasts, even though Dragonborn are reptilian, Minotaurs would logically have udders, and Shard born aren't even biological. I think monsters and PC races should only be drawn with breasts if: 1) they would logically have them, or 2) they are traditionally depicted as having them. What do you think...?
Yes it bothers me, both because of a gender-inequality underlying problem, and because it demonstrates a serious lack of both reason and fantasy.
 

SoulsFury

Villager
Every time I see a thread like this, all I can think of is that the OP must have never played D&D with females before. Women want boobs on everything. Men want boobs on everything. Why can't dragonborn have boobs? Thats like saying how can dragons fly because there is no such thing as dragons.
 
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Elf Witch

Villager
Well that's just gender prejudice. Bishōnen males everywhere are now offended. You have offended Justin Bieber and 90% of the Japanese male population.


I think people are relying too heavily on the assumptions that are borne of a very vague and mostly osmosis based understanding of reptilian and mammalian biology. I mean, if you're going to use "reptiles don't lactate" as a reason to hate on dragon-boobs, then you should probably actually understand the evolution of lactation. There are birds and fish that lactate. OMG! And there are mammals which lay eggs. NOWAI! Mammals and reptiles are evolutionary branches within the same tree and simply evolved different methods of gestation. Lactation is believed to have evolved as a means to keep eggs moist. Wrap that concept around yah noggin.

So, really, ultimately, realistically, the entire debate is kinda silly. Dragonboobs are just as legitimate as dragonborn females without boobs. Neither is "realistic" since dragonborn don't exist. And if they did, and they evolved from dragons, then they could've done so in a way that quite legitimately led to lactation, and even if they didn't... magic!
Well my knowledge comes from breeding reptiles and while I know that there are some that don't follow the standard of laying eggs and not nursing most do as the same with mammals the main definition of a mammal is a warm blooded animal that gives live birth and nurse its offspring and yes there are exceptions.

Half the discussions we have here could be classified as silly since we are dealing with a fantasy game. But that is part of the enjoyment having discussions like should dragons have boobs.

Personally I hate the argument that you can't have realism in a fantasy game it is old and trite.
 

Henrix

Villager
Personally I hate the argument that you can't have realism in a fantasy game it is old and trite.
Indeed. Fantasy without realism would just be weird and unrecognisable. That is just a very cheap excuse to not have to think.



I think that anything that can make girl gamers feel less excluded is good. Women are underrepresented as it is.
If breasts help some I'm all for it, it is a very evident clue to gender for humans.

(A preponderance of buxom girls with weird and unpractical clothes do bother me, though. And it does bother many of my women gamer friends. The new PHB is rather good in that respect.)

As is the fact that so many of the female roles and monsters are clearly oriented just toward men, as seducers or sexual predators.
 

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