Infusion questions (Artificer)

[Hanali]

I do not have acess to the books right now but got a question.

In the group I am running I have 2 Artificers and 1 Juggernaut warforged.

What I am wondering is how many +x infusions can they place on him or a weapon.

Example:

Artificer at 7th level (or whatever) Cast 5x1st level infusions... 3x2nd level infusions... and 1x3rd level. (I am more than likly off on the level of the artificer)

So the artificer can turn a normal short sword into 5 +1 bonus weapon (Bane...) Then 3 +2 infusions... then 1 +3 infusion

Creating a +14 weapon effectivly for the time being.

Is there a limit?


Hope this is not to confusing.

 

[Denaes]

So you're asking how many infusions can be cast into a single object and if that object is a Warforged if that number is different.

I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that you can only place one infusion per object. It may not be spelled out and it may have only been a suggestion in that keith Baker FAQ. Or my mind might be twisting crap around and making it up.

For a Warforged, I'd personally rule that they can have one infusion per body part able to wear a magic item: Body, two hands, head, neck, feet, etc.

Then again, I'm also far more likely to enforce that the infusion make sense - though there seems to be no rules about that in the class. Just as a GM, I'd say that if you wanted burning hands (for example), it would need to be infused on a hand, not a foot - unless you wanted burning feet. something involving armour would be the body, not the hand or head.

Again, thats just a personal thing. As far as I've read you can place any infusion on any object, no matter what it does or theme.

I'd like to hear something official here as I'm playing an Artificer and I have a warforged in my party as well.

 

[cmanos]

Hope this is not to confusing.

Yep, it is. Let me see here...

What I am wondering is how many +x infusions can they place on him or a weapon.

What infusion are you referring to?

So the artificer can turn a normal short sword into 5 +1 bonus weapon (Bane...) Then 3 +2 infusions... then 1 +3 infusion

Ah I see, so you are looking at the Weapon Augmentation infusion. First off, this does not give a +x bonus to the weapon, it just gives the powr, like Bane, Frost, Defending...

There is a debate over at the Eberron boards at Wizards.com over this. The only reference I can find in the SRD without doing some serious research is this

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

There are others that will argue that you can have a Bane, Defending, Frost, Keen, Vicious, Unholy, Icy Burst, Anarchic weapon of Speed. But I think that is just plain absurd. Besides. It would run you 400gp each time you wanted to blow all your infusions like this.

 

[cmanos]

Bah, didn't finish my thoughts.

If you are referring to the Magic Weapon infusion, that's easy. That is the same spell with the same effect. They don't stack. The highest bonus would be the bonus. Same with Magic Vestment or Shield of Faith. Neither armor or deflection bonuses stack, so the highest bonus would be the applicable one.

Now you could stack a Magic Weapon and a Weapon Enhancement. Or a Magic Vestment with a Shielf of Faith.

and you could also Weapon Augment the left and right fist differently, and augment the armor spikes differently. As the slam attack is a natural attack you could augment that separately with the Natural Weapon Augmentation

 

[Shadowlore]

There are others that will argue that you can have a Bane, Defending, Frost, Keen, Vicious, Unholy, Icy Burst, Anarchic weapon of Speed. But I think that is just plain absurd.

Why? Do any of these enhancements conflict? If not, let her rip.

First, it'll take you nine minutes before you are able to do anything with it, unless you burn (nearly) all of your action points. At best it'll be nine rounds, spending an action point per round (only one per round per RAW). Even then, frost and icy burst require a standard action to activate, so now we are talking about 2 more rounds before the wielder can do anything. If the wielder is not the artificer and is not holding the weapon you've got at least another round to exchange the weapon. If the wielder is not the artificer but is standing there holding the weapon you've got two party members out of combat for at least what, 10-12 rounds?

Since to get +2 level enhancements an Artificer needs 4th level infusions, the artificer's level must be at least 8th level. To get four of them at 8th level would require an int of at least 34. If you have this then I say your game is broken despite any rules. To use normal PC stat ranges at 8th level, perhaps say an int of 26 (minimum needed to get 2 bonus 4th level infusions) - this is theoretically possible by 8th I'll assume for the moment, without mass brokenage; but it is not "normal" IMO - you'd need to be an artificer of 9th level (2+2). Honestly, how many 9th level PCs have an int of 26? Without a high enough int to get 2 bonus 4th level infusions you need to be 13th level artificer.


Second, it is only for 10 minutes per level.

Third, it requires the artificer to wade into melee, not something most would like to do. Or, it will add another 100GP to the cost to let someone else do it.

Damagewise ...
speed: no bonus
bane: +2d6 if targetted corerectly
anarchic: +2d6 vs lawful only
defending: useless unless the weapon actually has an enhancement bonus, no +dmg in either case
unholy: +2d6 to good creatures
vicious: +2d6
frost: +1d6
icy burst: only in event of critical hit an extra 1d10 (possibly 2-3d10 on the right weapons)
keen: doubles crit range, no specific damage

So say this is applied to a normal heavy mace, or a longsword. What have you got?
Well if you are fighting a lawful good opponent of the needed bane type subject to critical hits and w/o any cold resistance ...

1d8+9d6 for a minimum damage of 10 points +str
to a maximum of
2d8+9d6+1d10
This leaves you with a minimum damage of 2+str+str + 10 = 12+str+str
a maximum of 16+54+10= 80 + 2*str. Figuring worst case of a buffed strength to say 22 that's still under 100 points of damage, at least 10-12 rounds into the combat at a cost of 400-500GP and ALL of the artificer's action points (unless he has heroic whatever-it-is in which case he has 3 left), for a party at least at 9th level (lets at least try to be reasonable about stats ).

This means he can not do it prior to 8th level at all using action points, and using action points he can only do it in less than 10 rounds one time per level.

Besides. It would run you 400gp each time you wanted to blow all your infusions like this.

Pretty expensive to do more than very occasionally to pull the party's caboose out of the fire so to speak. especially given the high action point cost to do it in anything short of 9 minutes that resembles a combat encounter.

Given the very high cost to do this, the scenario will happen once per level at a level where there are far better damage options available to a 9th level artificer (or party w/o one!).

As a 9th level artificer, the PC could well have made a wand of say .. Cone of Cold for dealing out cone 9d6 of non-roll-to-hit damage per round. So by the time she has that dreaded weapon ready to go (assuming action points), whe could already have dealt a potential of 9d6 for 10 rounds, or a minimum of 40 (though with an int score like above I don't put much faith in enemies making their saves!) and a maximum of 540 points. If I've got access to 4th level infusions I've got access to Metamagic Spell Trigger, meaning I could have expended 4 charges per round and dealt a minimum of 270 points (assuming all saves were made). Assuming a single wand, one casting per. If Maximized was put in the wand to start with and I used Quicken on the wand I could get a lot more damage dealt before the would-be weapon buffmeister got a single attack off.

Taking another route, how about a wand of Ray of Enfeeblement? Maximize that sucker, there's no save. Now, here you do strength damage. So, each round not spent buffing a weapon can mean 1d6+4 str damage to a target. It only takes a few rounds to drop most opponents at a minimum of 5 str damage per round. Maximize it and oh man it gets ugly fast. Quicken the thing for getting off two of them per round and your melee guys can make minced meat or scrap of most opponents. Sure, there is spell resistance but that can be overcome (no pun intended).

How about a couple Ray of Exhaustions? So they make the first save, they become fatigued. The next one they become exhausted. makes combat far easier (for you and your party) when your opponents are fatigued and/or exhausted. Fatigued is a -2str -2dex. Exhausted is -6. Twin spell/split tray/repeate spell that sucker for hitting multiple targets or for all but guaranteeing an exhausted opponent by hitting them twice (if you hit - RoExhaustion does but they get fort save).

if your artifcer is willing to wade into melee to make a touch attack, Bestow Curse. Good for sapping target's Con by 6 points (and a resulting -3HP per HD as well as making fort saves harder by three points). Or hit their wisdom first so they become more susceptible to further curses. Hit a few opponents with this in the 10 rounds it would take to amass that weapon buff and your party/encounter will be much more in your favor earlier on.

other fun options for the artificer to make scrolls of at this level include:

Defenstrating Sphere (CA). Man this spell is just cool. Lots of damage potential there, too. 4-11d6 per round if you keep hitting them. Or spread it around and cause serious chaos to your foes. At this level you've got it for 9 rounds.

Burning Blood(CA). 2db8/round and reduce to a single action (unless fort save).


... a lot more can go here, I think you get the picture.

Sure you expend XP for this, but that's what Craft Reserve and Retain Essence are for! Dont' have these made up already? No problem, use Spell Storing Item. You'll need to use a AP to get it in combat but you get to use the spell effect in round 2 instead of 11+ and it only takes a single AP and some XP (36 in this case).


This all reminds me of the phrase "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". In this case, it most certainly is. The weapon buff you reference here is rather lame compared to what any normal wielder of spells at this level could do, or even the same artificer using a different set of methods could do. Or even to some extent a rogue with a good UMD and some nice wands.

When you combine the sheer cost (remember action points don't get "recovered" until next level!), the options avaialable other than this, the weapon enhancement series you posit is actually rather weak. Now that I think about it, it wouldn't even make a decent Hail Mary attempt to save the PCs! After all we are talking at least 10 rounds AND a to-hit roll for a chance at a maximum damage of less than 100 points to a single target. A ninth level wizard with a twinned fireball can beat that in one round.

And all of this is figured as a 9th level artificer. If you go the more sensible route regarding int for bonus infusions we are talking amore along the lines of a 13th level Artificer. At this point she's got staves as well as rods and access to 8th level spells. How much damage do you suppose an artificer with scrolls of various spells up to 8th level inclusive can do in the 11+ rounds it takes to buff that weapon? How does Maximized Orb of Acid for 90pts +chance at other affects sound? Waves of Fatigue followed by RoExhaustion? Summon Monster 8?

Remember, the key aspect of Artificers (IMO) is their flexibility. Spending 9 action points to buff a weapon in 9 rounds is not exactly epitomizing flexibility when there are many less costly options. But hey if you can pay the costs and this turns out to be your best option ( though I find it difficult to imagine that possibility), why not? Being able to add weapon buffs is great at low level but not so much by comparison at the higher levels.

Cheers,
Bill

 

[Laman Stahros]

Taking another route, how about a wand of Ray of Enfeeblement? Maximize that sucker, there's no save. Now, here you do strength damage. So, each round not spent buffing a weapon can mean 1d6+4 str damage to a target. It only takes a few rounds to drop most opponents at a minimum of 5 str damage per round. Maximize it and oh man it gets ugly fast. Quicken the thing for getting off two of them per round and your melee guys can make minced meat or scrap of most opponents. Sure, there is spell resistance but that can be overcome (no pun intended).

Minor point, Ray of Enfeeblement does not do Strength damage, it gives the target a Strength penalty. Penalties do not stack, so you get the best penalty from multiple hits.

Otherwise, well thought out post.

 

[Shadowlore]

Minor point, Ray of Enfeeblement does not do Strength damage, it gives the target a Strength penalty. Penalties do not stack, so you get the best penalty from multiple hits.

Otherwise, well thought out post.

Ah, you are correct, a penalty it is. My mistake. The table on PHB 193 says damage, but after looking the text says penalty. But wait, I think it is meant to be damage: "the subjects strength score can not drop below 1".

If it is a penalty and not strength damage, this last line is irrelevant, is it not? After all, penalty does not affect your score, just your rolls.

Still, a maximized RoEnfeeblement is nothing to snicker at, even at mid-levels, IMO.

If it is a penalty it is in a way much more nasty. Instead of a 6point "hit" dropping your bonus down 3 points (or resulting in a 3 point "penalty"), now it's the full 6 points. For a first level spell I'd be inclined to say it does str damage. Strength damage is half as powerful as a straight strength penalty. Otherwise what caster (or artificer) worth his salt (and with access) does not have this one ready? Drop an opponents melee attack and damage by 6 points at first level? Hell yeah! Among those who can use one, who doesn't want a wand of that? On the other hand, doing str damage means their movement slows if they wind up having armor/equipment to heavy for them.

/me runs off to WoTC site
.... nope, no mention of this in the errata. Maybe it isn't used by very many people and hasn't been brought to their attention.


We are just now getting to Eberron, having lived in the Diamond Throne for the last year and a half or so. Artificer is the first PC (well of two simultaneous PCs) I'm playing in it. I'm not going the massive damage "blastificer" route, but I do plan to sneak this little gem in on my DM (hope he's not reading this) when I get Craft Wand. Now that's a way to let the Soulknife, Monk, and Ranger kick more bootay (by taking less damage in melee).

 

[Jack Simth]

Umm.... it's a penalty to Strength, not a direct penalty to strength rolls, strength checks, and Strength bonus. If a 1st level Sorceror hits an 18 STR fighter for 7, the fighter acts as though he has a STR of 11 for the duration (1 minute), not like he has a -7 to his Str modifier (effective Str of about 3 or 3...)

 

[Shadowlore]

Umm.... it's a penalty to Strength, not a direct penalty to strength rolls, strength checks, and Strength bonus. If a 1st level Sorceror hits an 18 STR fighter for 7, the fighter acts as though he has a STR of 11 for the duration (1 minute), not like he has a -7 to his Str modifier (effective Str of about 3 or 3...)

Then the only "difference" is duration of the damage/penalty for they achieve the same thing: your strength score goes down. It is "short term ability damage".

It only matters here due to the "penalty stack". If it cuts down your str score, a second blast will do more. So if the 18 fighter w/STR of 18 gets hit for 7, his STR will be (for the duration) 11. Next round he gets hit again, this time for 4. Now his STR is (for the duration) 7. If it is a STR penalty, then only the highest "hit" matters. But since it is not modifying your STR-based rolls, it arguably isn't a "penalty" for stacking. But we'll set that aside as it isn't needed and can get into semantics games Besides that, I'm not arguing for it anyway. So moving along (I still think the "str dmg" should be excised unless it is str damage).

Either way, sapping that 18STR fighter down to 7 is still putting him in a world of hurt if you've got melee friends, and is doable w/o stacking RoEnfeeblement. So instead follow RoEnfeeblement with RoExhastion. Different sources so they are "stackable". The penalties are unnamed and thus do stack with other unnamed penalties (just like bonuses).

Or be a right arse and follow it with (enervation/bestow curse) since you've all but neutered his ability to hurt you too much (your Arti does have an AC of 18-20+, right ) in melee.

Arguably for the mid-level artificer, maximized enervation (from wand) is more devastating. It specifically states that the negative levels stack, so you'd get a -4 to all ability checks, skill checks, attack, damage, efective caster level (lost spell levels/slots), etc.. Although a maximized RoEnfeeblement at 6th level artificer would do 11 points of dmg/penalty to the target's strength score. Odds are the 18 STR fighter now can't support his own armor and equipment between those two.

Then you hit him again. Again, no Save but SR allowed. Eight negative levels in two rounds.. ouch. For the cost of ... what, 10 charges? I'd pay that one.

Now that you've got him hurting, hit him with MaxRoEnfeeblement next round. At a minimum he's got a -8 to all rolls, his str is 11 points down, and if spellcaster he's lost something like 3-4 levels of spell slots.

We are now at three rounds.

Still not enough? Go ahead and tag him with Ray of Exhaustion. With the level drain he's not likely making his Fort save, so you'll drop his strength down another -6 to str and a -6 to Dex, plus he can only move at half his speed. Provided of course it ain't a LG Warforged.

So at four rounds your BBGG (the OP on the weapon buffs clearly targeted LG) is in this predicament:

down 17 strength
- if He's normally a STR 18 fighter, for example, he is now str 1, a penalty of -5 thus his atatcks are at -13, a net change of 17.
- he also would have lost most of his fighter feat access (to the extent it matters atm) from the first shot since a lot of them require STR13 or more

down 6 dexterity
- May well have lost dex-based figther feats here, too. Hmmm, maybe RofExhaustion is better first.
- assuming he had a dex bonus to AC, it's mostly gone now if not, no loss except to reflex saves. Tag him w/fireball.

moves at half speed
- or less since he can't carry his own armor and equipment now
it could be argued that at str 1 he is over heavy load (7-10lbs)
- arguably carrying twice your max load, str1, and all you might be able to argue the victim is helpless and qualifies for a coup de grace.

8 negative levels (-8 to all rolls, lost slots if applicable)

If your melee friends can't finish him off yet (could happen), drop a bestow curse on him. Take 6 off his STR or CON, whichever is above 6. Remember kids, loss of 6 con even if temporary can result in loss of 3 hitpoints per HD (since it is retroavtive) until it comes back (assuming he survives). And if that isn't enough, you CAN critical on Enevervation for double damage. Should you do that ... well party on dude, you've dealt 12 negative levels in a single round. Gods forbid you crit both of them (I've seen multiple 20-nats in a single round from a single person so it is possible) for 16 negative levels in a single round. Follow it up with Phantasmal Killer and finish him off at that point.

Then burn an AP and infusion on vicious or bane for the +2 heavy mace and lay waste to him for at least 2d8+4d6+2STR/round. Or turn your attention to another of the opposing force and ask who wants some of that?

Total time: 6 rounds
Cost: a few scrolls and/or charges from wands, maybe a touch of XP (depending on methods used), one AP and one infusion.

Or if time is of the essence:
Round 1: quickened from wand of Maximized enervation (5 charges) (-4 levels)
Round 1: normal from wand of max enervation 1 charge (-4 levels: total -8 levels)
Round 2: quickened applied to a maximized wand of RofExhaustion (5 charges) (-8 levels, probably -6 str/dex exhaustion)
Round 2: maximized RoEnfeeblement wand (1 charge) (-8 levels, probably -6 dex, -17str exhaustion)

Total cost:
12 charges over four wands, no AP, no additional GP expenditure.

Seeing your DM's (and the party's!) BBGG lying crippled on the floor at the feet of your Artificer in two rounds without using "Blastificer" damage stacking. Priceless.

Wait, what's the concern about the bane, axiomatic, unlawful .... etc. weapon stack that takes 10+ rounds and expends 9 action points again?

Granted, if the foe has good SR this changes things a bit. Circumstances may change the order. Foe advancing on your position with noone to intervene but you go first? Hit him with the Exhaustion first, it'll slow him down. Then do a full move to put more distance between you. Now you've got time to do some nasty crippling as above.

Groovy, baby. Groovy.

I think my math is correct (and memory), but it's been a 15 hour shift, so I apologize if it's off.

But back to the original topic, yes I'd allow it. It isn't broken IMO.