D&D 4E Initiative in 4E

[Pygon]

I tried a tick-based combat once. It took 2 hours to kill 4 fire giants. So I don't do that anymore

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hope that helps you out.

Thanks, mourn! I've gotta say a few things don't make immediate sense to me (why is tick 6 the highest? Because of the d10 pool's mechanics?), but how it reflects the speed of the action is exactly what I was also trying to get at from the d20 side of things.

In defense of the complexity, FFZ uses (by default) a highly abstract combat system, so effectively you're tracking speed instead of locations on a battle map. The exact locations of the characters don't matter, so things like movement and positioning are greatly simplified. For the tactical mindset, then, managing your speed becomes important. Go now, and get something done? Save up and go later? Let it all out and maybe be out of commission for a round or two? Those are the questions the players ask themselves rather than where am I, how far can I move, and will I get attacked as I move?

But for D&D, I'd LOVE to see anything that makes character speed more than an issue of who goes first in the cycle. While simple, it's TOO simple, in a way that (for instance) moving your characters around isn't. It could use some interesting tactical complexity. Not much, but a little.

 

[BASHMAN]

I think using a d20 and counting down 1. takes too long and 2. really makes dex etc less important than rolling lucky.

I think that the best model for initiative would be from Basic/Expert D&D-- it was an "order of operations system". This would also allow people to essentially get rid of AOO (except for if people run away and turn their back to you).

1. Ranged attacks
2. Melee Attacks.
3. Movement.
4. Spells & everything else.
5. Finish up [i.e. people who moved can now attack, people who attacked can now move, etc]

Thus, a person could interupt someone from drinking a potion or casting a spell because those things usually occur near the end of the order. TSo if you are next to a caster and you attack him before his spell goes off, it could disrupt the spell.

here would be no need to roll for initiative in this system-- essentially use dex to decide the order that people take their turns within the order. So if two fighters are attacking one another, the one with the higher dex goes first.

 

[The Little Raven]

Thanks, mourn! I've gotta say a few things don't make immediate sense to me (why is tick 6 the highest? Because of the d10 pool's mechanics?), but how it reflects the speed of the action is exactly what I was also trying to get at from the d20 side of things.

Well, the whole "Tick 6 is the highest tick is forced to wait until in order to act" part of the system is there to compensate for some outrageous dice pools. Just based on the most basic maxed dice pool (10), you're talking about the potential for ten or more successes (rolling a 10 on the die counts as 2 successes). When you add in things like Specialties (+1 die; can take the same specialty up to three times), and special abilities, you could come up with dice pools of 15 or higher. This could mean that a single character with a focus on the traits needed for initiative could get enough successes in order for him to perform 3 slow actions (such as casting a spell that would slay almost everything within several miles, and blight the land for decades) before anyone else can even respond.

But for D&D, I'd LOVE to see anything that makes character speed more than an issue of who goes first in the cycle. While simple, it's TOO simple, in a way that (for instance) moving your characters around isn't. It could use some interesting tactical complexity. Not much, but a little.

That's why I love the tick-based system. It makes you ask yourself "Get off two quick attacks and rely on ping (minimum damage) to take this guy down, or try and throw it all at him in one, huge swing?"

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I'd like to see tick-based combat slit round-based combat's throat and bury it out in the desert. Exalted 2nd Edition (and Scion) use tick-based combat, and I've totally fallen in love with it. Every action you take has a speed value attached to it, and you wait that number of "ticks" (abstract measurement of time, though it can represent real time; in Exalted it equals one second per tick) until you can act again. This way, you can more easily represent the difference between a faster, light attack (low damage, speed 3 for example) and a heavy, powerful one (high damage, speed 6 for example).

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=183977
Here's a partially completed conversion of the Exalted battleque I did, last year I think. It's an old version and I've progressed quite a bit but haven't had time to update or do much work because of other commitments.

 

[psionotic]

The 3.x initiative system is something that I really hope they *don't* change. I wouldn't be opposed to some little tweaks, maybe, like your size modifier being applied....

But I really don't want the combat round broken up into smaller chunks, or <shudder> to see the reintroduction of weapon speeds and spell casting segments.

 

[CanadienneBacon]

Every action you take has a speed value attached to it, and you wait that number of "ticks" (abstract measurement of time, though it can represent real time; in Exalted it equals one second per tick) until you can act again. This way, you can more easily represent the difference between a faster, light attack (low damage, speed 3 for example) and a heavy, powerful one (high damage, speed 6 for example).

2nd edition D&D used weapon speed during combat. While I found weapon speed to be cool in theory--made me grunt with interest the first time I read a 2E PHB--in practice, I found it to be cumbersome. Another complication to an already tedious combat system. I wouldn't want to see weapon speed or movement action speed (what you refer to above as "ticks") included in 4E.

 

[Henry]

If I had to guess, Init will be a skill, and it will more or less work just like in 3E (or more specifically, SWSE.) It's a very good system, and truthfully I've seen VERY few complaints on it in all the "rules" and "house rules" threads I've ever seen.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think using a d20 and counting down 1. takes too long and 2. really makes dex etc less important than rolling lucky.

Only at low levels, and not even then with some sort of level-based speed stat (FFZ uses Agility). But you may as well make the same argument that attack rolls make STR less important than rolling lucky.

Taking too long....I guess depends on what you see as too long. All complexity adds some time considerations, but I think in this case it's worth it for at least a *little* added complexity (and I KNOW it's worth it for FFZ).

I think that the best model for initiative would be from Basic/Expert D&D-- it was an "order of operations system". This would also allow people to essentially get rid of AOO (except for if people run away and turn their back to you).

1. Ranged attacks
2. Melee Attacks.
3. Movement.
4. Spells & everything else.
5. Finish up [i.e. people who moved can now attack, people who attacked can now move, etc]

Ick. That would mean I need to declare my action before I resolve it, ne? That's not reactive enough for my tastes...

 

[BASHMAN]

Ick. That would mean I need to declare my action before I resolve it, ne? That's not reactive enough for my tastes...

No, you wouldn't have to declare in advance. The DM would say "Anybody doing ranged attacks?" Then ranged attacks are resolved. "Anybody doing melee attacks?" Then melee attacks are resolved. "Anybody doing Movement?" Movement is resolved. "Anybody doing anything else?" Spells, potions, extra movement, etc is resolved.