Initiative - once/battle or every round?

[kigmatzomat]

I understand what you mean about making it more tense, I'd maybe entertain the idea more if it wouldn't bog down my game ...... but I don't need to make mine any more deadly or track any more pieces of information

Hmmm, this sounds odd. Do you GMs have people roll initiative and then have them tell what init they have, write it down, and then start the actions? Because yeah, that sounds like a lot of work. I'm *lazy.*

I just holler "roll initiative", make the rolls for the NPCs and start counting backwards from 30. People call out when I get to them, we do their action, and I continue until I reach 1 and repeat the process.

 

[IceBear]

Hmmm, this sounds odd. Do you GMs have people roll initiative and then have them tell what init they have, write it down, and then start the actions? Because yeah, that sounds like a lot of work. I'm *lazy.*

I just holler "roll initiative", make the rolls for the NPCs and start counting backwards from 30. People call out when I get to them, we do their action, and I continue until I reach 1 and repeat the process.

Yes, I do #1. I've had issues with cheating players in the past and don't want to give anyone any room to do so again (not that said player is in my group anymore).

I guess I'm too "formal". I record everything, track time (when spell durations end, etc) and pretty much have a copy of all the PCs character sheets behind my screen. I'd probably be better off if I let some of that go, but I like the details too. I'd think I'd find your way too chaotic for me (especially with all the shy noobs I seem to have), but that's just me.

 

[Zandy]

Yes, I do #1. I've had issues with cheating players in the past and don't want to give anyone any room to do so again (not that said player is in my group anymore).

We used to do the "Countdown" thing as well, until I made the initiative board.

I guess I'm too "formal". I record everything, track time (when spell durations end, etc) and pretty much have a copy of all the PCs character sheets behind my screen.

I do so also. We've played with some gamers in the past who "miscount" things like AC and BAB, always in their favor. Now its just habit. Plus, I have a guy in the group who likes to play new PCs every few games, so he refuses to let me know how many HP he has left. Suddenly, he's dead and happily rolling up a new character... If I don't keep track myself, I can't fudge the dice for a more exciting time for the REST of the group.

 

[IceBear]

We used to do the "Countdown" thing as well, until I made the initiative board.

Yeah, that board sounds neat, but more time than I currently have to make (and it does sound like there is a player moving it around). Most of my players are just getting comfortable with the rules so asking them to help might be too much of a distraction.

 

[DanMcS]

Gives rightful advantage to high-dex PC/NPCs; A rotten roll with single init can doom a PC,

No it can't. Once you get past the first-round flatfooted stage, initiative is cyclical, and going last in one round is the same as going first in the next round. An individual's initiative can only give you an advantage the first round of combat.

I hope that DMs out there don't roll separate inits for EACH NPC/monster! As a DM, I rarely roll more than 2 or 3 inits. It truly doesn't make the combats go slower, and it CERTAINLY makes them more exciting.

I bet it does, since it disadvantages the PCs rather severely.

When the adversaries clump, instead of fighting, say, 8 goblins, your party is actually fighting two multispacial monsters that act on their own initiatives. If each goblin has its own init, then they'll be mixed in amongst the PCs for actions and won't get to gang up on anyone. If they are grouped into two groups of 4, and one group beats some of the PCs, then that's four actions that can be taken against one PC before he can react. Anyone that plays can tell you concentrating fire is a central tactic to hp-type games like this, because you can wear down and take out a single opponent rapidly, which reduces the other side's ability to do the same to you. Worst case, where a single goblin can stab a PC once and probably not take him down, if all four of them go on the same init, the PC will be down and dead before anyone on his side even gets an action to react.

Clumping monsters together for initiative is bad DMing in 3rd edition.

 

[Zandy]

No it can't. Once you get past the first-round flatfooted stage, initiative is cyclical, and going last in one round is the same as going first in the next round. An individual's initiative can only give you an advantage the first round of combat.

I don't think you are following this correctly. My statement applies to rolling EACH round. On average, the PCs/monsters with higher dex/improved init will go before those without those. Rolling Init only once can doom a PC/monster for a whole battle, which, if they are created to have better init, is a large penalty. Sure, a high dex PC could have a round or two where the odds give them a bad roll, but it will usually even out.

I bet it does, since it disadvantages the PCs rather severely.

Wow. Your players must hate combats with you...

When the adversaries clump, instead of fighting, say, 8 goblins, your party is actually fighting two multispacial monsters that act on their own initiatives.

Thats is an awfully simplistic view of the situation. If all 4 goblins are standing right next to each other, and never change that formation, then your situation would be true. In most combats I've run or been in, 4 goblins or any monster don't stand close, let alone stay that way. They spread out.

I'm not saying that doing it this way is perfect, but it simply makes the combats more exciting. It CERTAINLY isn't more complicated or time consuming then rolling initiative for EIGHT goblins in a combat.

Worst case, where a single goblin can stab a PC once and probably not take him down, if all four of them go on the same init, the PC will be down and dead before anyone on his side even gets an action to react.

I agree that in combat 101, you need to concentrate attacks. I do so on both sides of the DM screen. But in reality, it just doesn't happen that consistently to make a difference that I'd want to roll bunches of inits.

 

[IceBear]

I think part of Dan's point was that rolling the 8 goblin's once would be better than doing it every round.

Also, his first point, as I stated previously, is that after the first round it's all relative. If the rogue rolled a bad initiative in round #1 and ended up going last he will lose any possible sneak attacks for flat footed opponents (just like he would with your style) so he's lost his big advantage for this combat. After the first round, going last in one round is essentially the same as going first in the next. Sometimes going after everyone else is an advantage. In Battletech, for example, the side losing the Initiative moves first.

I do understand and appreciate that it helps with the randomness of combat, but randomness doesn't favor the PCs and it slows down combat enough for my group that I am ok with not reaching that level of "realism"

 

[Zandy]

I think part of Dan's point was that rolling the 8 goblin's once would be better than doing it every round.

Hummm.. Didn't get that. Thanks.

I suppose this is logically correct. But after 8 years of init each round, I just haven't found it to be a problem.

Also, his first point, as I stated previously, is that after the first round it's all relative. If the rogue rolled a bad initiative in round #1 and ended up going last he will lose any possible sneak attacks for flat footed opponents (just like he would with your style) so he's lost his big advantage for this combat.

If it were a party comprised solely of rogues, then this would really stink for the party... But MOST PC groups are a little more varied, IMHO.

But that is the GOOD thing about init each round is that the speedy ones can get back to the top of the line. Sure, the rogues can't sneak, but they can move to flank and get one in that way.

I do understand and appreciate that it helps with the randomness of combat, but randomness doesn't favor the PCs and it slows down combat enough for my group that I am ok with not reaching that level of "realism"

Hey... to each group their own... As long as we all have fun doing it our own way, right?

 

[Philip]

I don't think you are following this correctly. My statement applies to rolling EACH round. On average, the PCs/monsters with higher dex/improved init will go before those without those. Rolling Init only once can doom a PC/monster for a whole battle, which, if they are created to have better init, is a large penalty. Sure, a high dex PC could have a round or two where the odds give them a bad roll, but it will usually even out.

I have found that the fact that initiative is cyclical and 'rounds' do no really exist anymore is VERY HARD to explain to some of my players (who came over from 2e). They 'feel' penalized every round of the battle if they roll bad at the beginning, while (as another poster mentioned) they are actually only penalized in the first round.

I still wonder about apparent power of the psychological effect of losing initiative. Refocus was popular in 3.0, even though I explained to the player who used it, that it didn't matter if you go on being last in a particular round, or refocus and go first in the next. There's just something about initiative that makes some people go crazy.

And about the 'increased tension' of rolling initiative each round. This increases randomness which is works against the PCs in the long run. In effect, you are making your games more lethal by using once-a-round initiative.

 

[Zandy]

And about the 'increased tension' of rolling initiative each round. This increases randomness which is works against the PCs in the long run. In effect, you are making your games more lethal by using once-a-round initiative.

This is the 4th or 5th time someone has stated this and I just don't see it. If, to use your argument, it is random, how can it work against the PCs, or the monsters for that matter? Random is random.

As I stated earlier, what ACTUALLY happens is the speedy guys (PCs *and* monsters) tend to get slotted where they belong, which is at a higher init. Since generally it is the PCs with the extraordinary abilities (higher dex, improved init, etc) they tend to go first.