Initiative Question

[Plane Sailing]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to do this? A long time ago I played AD&D with rollling initiative every round and it was horrible. The time spent rolling dice, the illogical things that happened because people took two turns in a row...

The funny thing is, this was the standard way of doing combat in D&D for, what, about 25 years?

When people heard about the cyclic initiative of 3e people threw their hands up and said "Wuh?!?"

The fact is, rolling for initiative works. Cyclic initiative also works. Deterministic initiative (e.g. Bushido, Runequest) also works.

There are different wrinkles to each approach, and as long as everyone playing is happy with those, you can go with whatever seems fun.

Doing it in 4e would be interesting. As has been noted it means that sometimes some powers would fizzle early and sometimes those same powers might seem to last twice as long (unless you made a change like 'power lasts until end of next round', for instance - and possibly applied damage to everyone at the top of the round and did saves for everyone at the end of the round). Whatever King Nate chooses to do, it will find a natural balance point in the end.

Cheers

 

[King Nate]

I posted this question on multiple RPG boards and this response will be posted on all the boards as well, so if something in this response doesn’t make sense it probably refers to another board.

I had gotten that infamous little red box for Christmas years ago. I then followed up with the initials AD&D. After that I fell in love with something called 2nd edition. The thing all these had in common was that you rolled for initiative.

By the end of 2nd editions run, my play groups were dying, and people were moving on to other things in their life. So when 3rd edition came out, we all skipped it. We never played anything with a 3 in it’s title.

Now a few years later, everyone is settled in and I stumbled into 4e by accidentally going to the D&D webpage instead of the Magic webpage (turns out wizards of the coast controls both of these now). My interest was peaked (4e sounded great) and I was able to convince members of my old play group to gather and play this new edition, since we were starting to get burnt on Magic.

Now understand, we have no problem not rolling for initiative, but it just feels a little weird. We also don’t have a problem rolling for initiative, even if it does take longer. You people that keep bringing this up as a reason to not roll for initiative, even though I said it was not an issue, are now put on my ignore list.

So all I wanted to find out is if there was anything that would be messed up mechanically by rolling for initiative.

The argument that some powers will last longer while others will not, is not a convincing argument for me to not use the roll. Use some smarts when using your powers, if you are the last to act in the initiative, using a power that has an effect that last until the end of your next turn probably isn’t a good idea right now.

The warlord argument is interesting, I would have to look into that some more but I think rolling for initiative is bad only for warlords? Or would this be true for all leader roles? However I won’t be looking into it because of the next argument.

The argument that rolling for initiative can cause people to want to roll low for initiative in rounds after they have rolled high can mess up things (like feats) that grant bonuses to initiative rolls. This is going against the core mechanic that makes rolling high more desirable. Now we have a person who took a feat that gives them a +4 to initiative. They are wanting to roll low, but get a +4! Sounds like this would become a headache trying to change everything to make initiative rolls more desirable to the players…I agree, I will not be rolling for initiative. Thanks for the help guys.

BTW, I have no idea what Savage Worlds is, nor do I care. Please nobody explain it to me, if I wanted to know I would google it.

And yes, I am excited that there is no more negative AC.

 

[Mengu]

The argument that some powers will last longer while others will not, is not a convincing argument for me to not use the roll. Use some smarts when using your powers, if you are the last to act in the initiative, using a power that has an effect that last until the end of your next turn probably isn’t a good idea right now.

For some characters, this would be 90% of their powers. Also important is the fact that the power balance of certain powers rely on the fact that they will be effective for two rounds (this round and next). Upsetting that balance makes a lot of powers less desirable for the players.

I agree, I will not be rolling for initiative. Thanks for the help guys.

Good decission.

 

[Gruns]

Hmm. I was going to add my 2 cents to this thread, but after the attitude spewed forth in the post prior to this one, I've changed my mind. Ugh.
Later,
Gruns

 

[fba827]

It's something you _could_ do, just make sure everyone knows it at the start of the campaign (rather than a mid-campaign change) so that people can choose powers, feats, etc accordingly.

(As for the improved initiatiev feat, you'd either have to ban it or else say your total initiative modifier (dex + feats) can be used as a bonus or penalty, your choice, every round - so they might sometimes add when trying to go early or subtract when trying to go at the end)...

but my point is, if you did want to do it, just make sure it's stated at the start of the campaign so that people can make educated character choices for the varient that you're introducing.

 

[King Nate]

It's something you _could_ do, just make sure everyone knows it at the start of the campaign (rather than a mid-campaign change) so that people can choose powers, feats, etc accordingly.

(As for the improved initiatiev feat, you'd either have to ban it or else say your total initiative modifier (dex + feats) can be used as a bonus or penalty, your choice, every round - so they might sometimes add when trying to go early or subtract when trying to go at the end)...

but my point is, if you did want to do it, just make sure it's stated at the start of the campaign so that people can make educated character choices for the varient that you're introducing.

I am one who always explains any variant to the rules that I add/subtract from the game. I may even go a little overboard with it at times. So there are no worries there.

I just figured that if there was no mechanical change by rolling initiative each round then I would go with that, however seeing how I would have to check each feat, ritual, power, magical item, monster, and rule for every sourcebook we add to the campaign as we play…I don’t think I need that headache. Plus I do have a couple new people going to be playing and I don’t want to confuse them too much with, “you need to role high everywhere except during initiative where you must decide if you want to role high or low.”

Thanks for helping me make a decision though.

Hmm. I was going to add my 2 cents to this thread, but after the attitude spewed forth in the post prior to this one, I've changed my mind. Ugh.
Later,
Gruns

Sorry Gruns if I somehow offended you, as I stated in that prior post I was posting that answer to all the boards I proposed this question to. There are a couple of boards that totally ripped me apart for even suggesting the idea and I did my best to hold back on my attitude when writing my response, knowing I would be posting it on all the boards.

For some characters, this would be 90% of their powers. Also important is the fact that the power balance of certain powers rely on the fact that they will be effective for two rounds (this round and next). Upsetting that balance makes a lot of powers less desirable for the players.

However I think it would make for an interesting addition to the tactical aspect of the game. Though I am not going to use it since I decided to not roll for initiative each round.

Now that I am thinking about it, I could create a magical trap or an area affected by some kind of time warp that causes everyone to roll for initiative each round. Only for that one combat encounter (most likely an end boss). This would have two effects, makes the encounter more difficult and test out how the rolling for initiative system works.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Glad you've come to a conclusion that will work for you. Enjoy the game!

Cheers

 

[Dracorat]

Hmm. I was going to add my 2 cents to this thread, but after the attitude spewed forth in the post prior to this one, I've changed my mind. Ugh.
Later,
Gruns

I concur. I had a few things I may have said in response, but there's no sense in engaging such hostility. I only post now to add my voice to the discontent.

 

[James McMurray]

Hmm. I was going to add my 2 cents to this thread, but after the attitude spewed forth in the post prior to this one, I've changed my mind. Ugh.
Later,
Gruns

Ditto. Being pompous at one board and blaming it on treatment received at another is just plain lazy.

 

[Malachor]

This is strange. The group I play in has always rolled for intitiative, all the way back to 1st ed Ad&d.
I can't imagine not rolling at all.
What it does do is, get you more involved (my opinion) in what's happening. When you roll low (well, when your inititiative result is low), and take some serious damage, then you really focus on hoping that you'll roll high next round. If you do, it's very good .
So it adds more tension to the game, rather than going the same time every round, which I think is boring.
Also, what happens if you always go last? There's a chance that you die before you do anything, whereas, by rolling each time, you may be able to kill your opponent before he kills you.
So if you don't roll each round, you have to aim for a high initiaive no matter what, when, by rolling, a high inititative bonus is nice, but not necessary.
Let me ask this, if you and your opponent are the same class/race/etc, who will win the fight(when not rolling)? Would I be wrong in saying the person who goes first?
But, by rolling, there's a chance, that all other things being equal, it could be the person who rolled last in the first round, but first in the last round. So there's a chance for either person to win/survive, not just the first to act.
Now, we haven't played many 4th ed sessions, but we never stress over the powers we get based on our initiative. We get the ones we like the sound of, if they don't work, retrain them.
just my 2 cp.