Inquisitive

[Quickleaf]

Great feedback, thanks for responding to each power like that!

My critical eye for 4e isn't quite as trained but I'm happy to look over any ideas you have.

I'm curious about your feat of strength build...was this anything like the new Batman movie's brute force fighting style? It interesting, because my sources for inspiration are all skilled at fist-fighting, even Sherlock Holmes knew some combination of judo and jujitsu!

I'm trying to avoid the tertiary stat class like the paladin, but perhaps we can create three builds based on Intelligence + a secondary stat. For example, the "tough inquisitive" could be Strength, the "insightful inquisitive" could be Wisdom, and the "hard-boiled inquisitive" could be Charisma?

Btw, about names I see you used Mastermind as the name for your homebrew concept. Was that easy for you to settle on, or are you still not sure about it? I'm searching for a catchy name, and while I like Inquisitive I'm wondering if it captures the archetype succinctly enough.

 

[Starfox]

I suppose the Str build comes from such sources as Victor Hugo (The Hunchback of Notre Dame) and other victorian gothica, as well as modern superheres and big bruiser types. Marv in Sin City would be one, Fezzik of Princess Bride another. Hardly intellectuals, tough, so maybe this would do better as a class of its own, especially if we end up with an int-based class.

I am not settled on the name, neither for the class not for the different builds, but I consider that something that might come later, once the concept itself settles a bit.

Now I'm having computer issues at home and will be traveling in the next two weeks, so my posts here might be sporadic.

 

[Quickleaf]

"Monstrous" Powers

I've gone back to the drawing board to rethink the class with the design guidelines clarified, and came up with this neat concept of "monstrous" daily powers. Basically they require the target to be of a certain type (e.g. shapeshifter, regenerates, dragon). The Inquisitive can swap a # of these "monstrous" powers for each other each day, allowing them more utility like the wizard's spellbook.

Here are 2 examples of possible "monstrous" powers.

Aura Bane (Inquisitive Attack 5)
Your painful strike causes a fit of rage in your foe which ignites its aura to destroy you…only to find its energy attacking its allies in the process.
Daily ♦ Martial, Monstrous, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature with an aura
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W]+Intelligence modifier and you may suppress or activate the creature’s aura (save ends). If activated, it affects all creatures, not just its enemies.
Hit or Miss: You may shift 2 squares after the attack.

Hyperegeneration (Inquisitive Attack 5)
Taking careful aim, you pierce the regeneration glands of the target, causing excessive tissue growth as the creature is painfully misshapen.
Daily ♦ Martial, Monstrous, Weapon
Standard Action, Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W]+Intelligence modifier and the target is slowed (save ends) and becomes difficult terrain. On its first failed save it is immobilized (save ends) and it becomes impassable and all adjacent squares become difficult terrain.

 

[Starfox]

While I like these powers, I feel they need a different preparation mechanism. Or maybe just different verbage. It is more akin to finding the right tool than preparing the right spell. I feel it should be linked to knowing about the monster beforehand, like a monster hunter who learns about his prey's vulnerabilities and exploits them. Then again, the spellbook approach fits pretty well here; having to select a power beforehand means you can make more use of any information you have. Unlike the spellbook, I don't think this should apply to every daily power. It might do better as a class feature with a single encounter power that is highly situational and requires information about the prey. Making a big part of the monster hunter's arsenal depend on making choices in advance makes the class too swingy.

However, this has problems as well. If I make a horror-themed regenerating werewolf scenario I want my players to find out the werewolves regenerate and find the counter I built into the scenario, not just use class tool #3. I have no clear solution to this, I just wanted to point out this problem.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hmm, I think my idea solves that problem.

Certain daily powers have the keyword "monstrous". X times/day you can swap one "monstrous" daily for any other "monstrous" daily. You might have Hyperegeneration but then face a monster with an aura so you swap it to Aura Bane.

So you have flexibility (it's not over swingy), represents advance preparation, and doesn't ruin a campaign where you need to figure out a special weakness.

In other words, the "knowing beforehand" is built into the class. Archivist Dark KNowledge type checks are certainly possible, but I think unnecessary as far as the powers go.

Now that could be its own class feature....kind of what I'm trying to do with the Bestiary feature. So while it feels spontaneous to the player, it represents planning and foresight on the part of the character.

 

[Starfox]

I posted some further potential powers at http://hastur.net/wiki/Martial_Controller_(4E)#Power_Sketches

Edit: Did my versions of many of the Inquisitor powers, often changing them mechanically while keeping the name and concept behind the power. In this way, what I wrote automatically becomes reviews/feeback on the Inquisitve powers Quickleaf wrote. In general, my versions use less rolls and I tried to make them more 4E-esque.

 

[Quickleaf]

Great work! I missed this update a few days ago, but I really like the power sketches you've come up with. Thanks for taking a stab at the re-writes too.

Before I comment on each one, I have some concerns.

First, I disagree with making the class' primary stat Dexterity. There's a Dex Fighter build, Dex is the 1st or 2nd stat of Rangers, and Dex is the Rogue's primary stat - I think there's enough martial classes with a focus on Dex. On the other hand, no class besides the wizard emphasizes Int as the primary stat. I.e. Dex needs no more love, but Int sorely does, and it fits the archetype.

Second, I realized that some of the powers I suggested might not suit the original archetype of an investigative cunning hero, and want to focus more strongly on the concept - making powers around it, rather than vice versa. Anyhow, hence the importance of Intelligence. It seems you're going for something different with the "Daredevil" focus, more of an adaptive acrobat, but I'm not sure. The assortment of powers seem very eclectic.
What is your concept/archetype for the MC?


Ok, onto the powers! EDIT: I only made it through Superior Ground so far, but I'll post more comments later/

Challenge the Leader
I think most of your re-writes of my powers are well done and more "4E-like". Are there precedents for powers where the "target cannot save against this at the end of its current round"?

Hidden Stake
While I agree it should be a free action and like that you added the restrained condition, your version is hard to swallow because it dictates something about your enemy, e.g. they're clumsy. That's a power-design no-no. And why take "getting knocked prone" out of the trigger?
I was hesitant writing hidden stake because it makes an assumption about your battle environment (one which movies seem to make a bit, but still D&D is stranger than movies), suffering from a variation of the invisible non-combat equipment syndrome.

Foe Shield
Much much better, thanks!

Pebble Trap
I'm hesitant about this power along with the others which rely on "invisible non-combat equipment". It just seems like the sort of thing that's better handled with the stunt rules in the What the Rules Don't Cover section of the DMG rather than codified as a power.

Anchored Shackles
A solid power. The more I consider the class' powers, I wonder if requisite weapon powers make sense or not. I can't help but think that anchored shackles, shackles, and lodestone shackles belong together as a multi-class feat a la gladiator/assassin Dragon articles.

Pressing Attack
I like the change you made, but I'd make this an encounter power and remove the "adjacent" clause because it's dissonant with the flavor. Consider that the MC isn't necessarily trying to avoid being near enemies like most controllers - class features should allow it to maneuver among enemies and use them against each other (at least minions and less powerful foes).

Warding Pose
Shouldn't this be a high-level stance power with a sustain minor option? Just seems more 4E that way.

Shock and Awe
Love the concept! Very Batman-esque I'd add something to it, but probably not damage (since that could kill minions from fright). How about you also gain concealment? Or the first attack against you in the encounter misses as enemies think you're in 2 places at once?
Also, since I'm of the school of single stat class design, I don't like that it uses Charisma for the attack (even if it makes sense). I would instead add a damaging primary attack, and if that hits it triggers an automatic wave of fear secondary attack. More rolling, but also true to what a pulp hero might do.

Ragdoll
This power needs a primary attack. Also, when it's used in movies, isn't the thrown foe also knocked prone?
I'll also point out that it would be easier to say push 2 squares rather than Strength. Again, this is a design philosophy thing - the fewer stats involved in powers the more effective the class. This goes for other powers too, like Foe Sweep where your primary attack is Dexterity and secondary is Strength.

Foe Sweep
Why not get rid of the secondary attack language, and make it a secondary burst 1?

Reckless Pursuit
Feels torn out of samurai movie Love it!
The part about knocking them prone on a melee hit seems too powerful however.

Throw Sand
This power is just a bad idea. It relies on invisible non-combat equipment and is the sort of trick that shouldn't come up even every day. It should also be risky (yours is a guaranteed hit). And it's prone to other players asking why their characters can't do it, or why it's a daily power. I know it's a cool movie move, but leave it for creative and daring players to try as a stunt, not a power. There's been a lot of online discussion of various versions of this power, wish I had a url to refer you to.

Restraining Shot
Solid power.

Warding Strike
Ending the target's turn is very powerful, something I wouldn't expect to see until mid-paragon levels. Also, the power is kind of bland. Did you have an specific idea/inspiration you were going for?

Shot Through
Hard to understand. I think this one deserves a closer look. What were your thoughts designing it? Didn't like the crossbow requirement? What's a Piercing Target/Attack in captial letters mean?

Blinding Shot
Solid power.

Irritating Cloud
Along with pebble trap, oil slick, and throw sand, I am skeptical of powers like this. I don't think they mold well to 4E's at-wll/encounter/daily power division, and are better handled with stunts.

Arterial Shot
Simple changes, solid power.

Trigger Trap
Awesome, but this seems like the kind of thing you should be able to do with Thievery anyhow, doesn't it?

Skeleton Trick
Hmm. This looks like a toned down version of Become the Wraith? For the purposes of making comments & critique it would have been easier for me if you kept the same names or at least put them in parantheses for ease of reference. Oh well, next time.
What were your thoughts behind this one?

Jarring Blow
Seems out of place and without any flavor. Also, why does the stunning last until the *beginning* of the PC's next turn? I haven't seen powers do that much.

Quick Kick
This is Sudden Kick re-concepted, right? Some of the name changes seem...odd. I'm not sure what necessitated changing them.
Your version does none of what I was trying to accomplish with the original, that is blurring the boundary between monsters & terrain. I agree that the original power was too complex, but you've thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Oil Slick
I feel like such a naysayer. You've come up with cool powers that capture the feel of movies really well. It's just that oil slick is the kind of thing that's so circumstantial it works better as a stunt than a power.

Roll With the Blow
I like your version, but it has a different feel. Why push and not shift?
The original was intended to model getting pounded by a strong monster (knocked prone), hence the clause about being able to rise faster. Maybe that's better handled by a feat?

Lethal Dodge
Solid power.

Eagle Eye
Awesome, awesome power. Did you make this one up or was it based on one of mine? Either way, it looks great.

Even the Field
This is a high-paragon or low-epic power, and it also seems like it belongs to the Ranger not the MC we're working on.
Still, I'm hooked on the basic mechanic about the lingering zone.

Superior Ground
This seems like a re-tooling of the Canny Positioning class feature. Is that right?

 

[Starfox]

A very long reply that will need a long and tought-out answer. I'll see what I can come up with. I might seem defensive, but I love the issues you bring up: it forces me to re-examine what I wrote. Even if I defend my current version, it can still prompt me to change and polish later.

While I agree that Int is an underused attribute in 4E, and especially among the martial classes, I find it a bit hard to swallow to have combat maneuvers on Intelligence. Also, I envision the Dartedevil as pretty open conceptually - again, the movie The Princess' Bride is perhaps the best example. All the three major characters in that movie could be Daredevils as I am now building them. But this decision isn't very important at this stage - it is quite easy to change even at a late stage in the design process. Overall, the class for me is still in its infant stage. I'm still making building blocks. I find it is a bigger part of the process to build the parts than to assemble them. I'm not yet completely certain what this class will be like - with 4 different sub-builds, it is indeed very eclectic right now. It might still end up as two different classes. In the end, we might end up with 2 different classes, one Int-based, one based on another attribute, probably Dexterity or Strength. Perhaps the Int-based ideas for the Daredevil will go to the Inquisitive or whatever.

Invisible equipment is a major drag for you. I just don't see the problem as very serious at all. If there was a solid stunt system that people actually used I could see an issue, but the short DMG section is very sketchy and also not very rewarding to try and use. (Actually, this could be worth its own separate thread.) Just as a Wizard can pull tricks out of his sleeve and use them in a figurative sense, I don't see a problem with a martial character doing so literally.

Challenge the Leader
I think most of your re-writes of my powers are well done and more "4E-like". Are there precedents for powers where the "target cannot save against this at the end of its current round"?

Not as far as I know. I too find it a little odd, but as you do this during an opponent's turn, letting them get a save at their turn would make the power very weak. It could have a set duration instead.

Hidden Stake
While I agree it should be a free action and like that you added the restrained condition, your version is hard to swallow because it dictates something about your enemy, e.g. they're clumsy. That's a power-design no-no. And why take "getting knocked prone" out of the trigger?
I was hesitant writing hidden stake because it makes an assumption about your battle environment (one which movies seem to make a bit, but still D&D is stranger than movies), suffering from a variation of the invisible non-combat equipment syndrome.

Knocked Prone is a pretty rare condition, but reading your power again I see its either that or being pushed into a wall, which is very cool - that should stay the way you wrote it.

Pebble Trap
I'm hesitant about this power along with the others which rely on "invisible non-combat equipment". It just seems like the sort of thing that's better handled with the stunt rules in the What the Rules Don't Cover section of the DMG rather than codified as a power.

Do your players ever use the "what the rules don't cover" section? Mine don't. If its not a power, they will very rarely try it.

Anchored Shackles
A solid power. The more I consider the class' powers, I wonder if requisite weapon powers make sense or not. I can't help but think that anchored shackles, shackles, and lodestone shackles belong together as a multi-class feat a la gladiator/assassin Dragon articles.

Possibly this could be a weapon specialization power for the spiked chain. But note that you do not need a flail to use this; having shackles in a free hand will do. We need about a hundred powers total to make a class; being picky about them makes things a lot harder. I have tried to avoid weapon-specific powers, but this is not really one of those.

Pressing Attack
I like the change you made, but I'd make this an encounter power and remove the "adjacent" clause because it's dissonant with the flavor. Consider that the MC isn't necessarily trying to avoid being near enemies like most controllers - class features should allow it to maneuver among enemies and use them against each other (at least minions and less powerful foes).

I took the adjacent restriction from the name and fluff; putting pressure on someone generally means going in close. But given that it is also a ranged power, it should probably work differently, perhaps have a different name too. This might end up as two powers.

Warding Pose
Shouldn't this be a high-level stance power with a sustain minor option? Just seems more 4E that way.

I thought it would be a little too strong if it lasted several rounds. You might let it work like that at epic levels. Perhaps make a separate power on that concept.

Shock and Awe
Love the concept! Very Batman-esque I'd add something to it, but probably not damage (since that could kill minions from fright). How about you also gain concealment? Or the first attack against you in the encounter misses as enemies think you're in 2 places at once?
Also, since I'm of the school of single stat class design, I don't like that it uses Charisma for the attack (even if it makes sense). I would instead add a damaging primary attack, and if that hits it triggers an automatic wave of fear secondary attack. More rolling, but also true to what a pulp hero might do.

Compare to Signature Flourish - these two powers started off as one power and developed in different directions. I think you're right about not using Charisma as an attack stat here, but it really does not work as a Dexterity attack. If this was an Int-based class, this power would work superbly. As it is, it doesn't really work for the Daredevil.

And, with the way hp these days are mostly about morale, I see no reason why you cannot "kill" minions from fright.

Ragdoll
This power needs a primary attack. Also, when it's used in movies, isn't the thrown foe also knocked prone?
I'll also point out that it would be easier to say push 2 squares rather than Strength. Again, this is a design philosophy thing - the fewer stats involved in powers the more effective the class. This goes for other powers too, like Foe Sweep where your primary attack is Dexterity and secondary is Strength.

The intent is that the push against the primary target is automatic; then you roll attack rolls against both primary and secondary targets to see if you get the damage and knockdown. I wanted to avoid making it like Orb of Force, that must hit its primary target or have no effect at all; making an area attack that chancy makes it very hard to balance. Accuracy against secondary targets becomes too low.

Foe Sweep
Why not get rid of the secondary attack language, and make it a secondary burst 1?

This is really a single-target attack with a small side effect on adjacent targets. That said, your idea is good; I will have Insight of Power add Str to damage to secondary targets instead of what it does now, which is overcomplex.

Reckless Pursuit
Feels torn out of samurai movie Love it!
The part about knocking them prone on a melee hit seems too powerful however.

I think of this as a paragon or even epic level power. What it really does is push, allow each ally in the area a basic melee attack (often not that interesting) and do simple attack damage. I thought it needed a little more, but that of course depends on what level it ends up at.

Throw Sand
This power is just a bad idea. It relies on invisible non-combat equipment and is the sort of trick that shouldn't come up even every day. It should also be risky (yours is a guaranteed hit). And it's prone to other players asking why their characters can't do it, or why it's a daily power. I know it's a cool movie move, but leave it for creative and daring players to try as a stunt, not a power. There's been a lot of online discussion of various versions of this power, wish I had a url to refer you to.

Its a single-target control power that isn't even very impressive in effect. But it could be changed to have a more dramatic effect on a hit and a less dramatic one on a miss, sort of Bild+slow with just Blind on a miss.

Warding Strike
Ending the target's turn is very powerful, something I wouldn't expect to see until mid-paragon levels. Also, the power is kind of bland. Did you have an specific idea/inspiration you were going for?

Its a lesser variant of Warding Pose, above. I envision it as a quick and solid intercept punch or weapon strike that takes the air out of the opponent. The class needs something to keep it alive in melee, and this has the right proactive feel for me - more so than a simple defense bonus. Rather than avoiding the attack, you insire the opponent doesn't even get to attack.

Shot Through
Hard to understand. I think this one deserves a closer look. What were your thoughts designing it? Didn't like the crossbow requirement? What's a Piercing Target/Attack in captial letters mean?

I originally called the follow-up attacks secondary atatcks, but since the recusrsion is a bit complex, I decided to try another wording. Since then I've noticed other powers that give multple "secondary" attacks, so I guess that wording is better. And no, I dodnöt like the crossbow requirement. I think deciding what weapons a class can use is very restricting and should be avoided. You can give incitaments to use certain weapons - such as starting proficency - but its bad to prohibit certain weapons alltogether.

Irritating Cloud
Along with pebble trap, oil slick, and throw sand, I am skeptical of powers like this. I don't think they mold well to 4E's at-wll/encounter/daily power division, and are better handled with stunts.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Trigger Trap
Awesome, but this seems like the kind of thing you should be able to do with Thievery anyhow, doesn't it?

Possibly... But it would be much harder to pull off as justa general stunt.

Skeleton Trick
Hmm. This looks like a toned down version of Become the Wraith? For the purposes of making comments & critique it would have been easier for me if you kept the same names or at least put them in parantheses for ease of reference. Oh well, next time.
What were your thoughts behind this one?

This was based on a favourite stunt friends of mine used to use in TORG. And the name is a placeholder - its based on the stunts they used. I donöät see a power named Become the Wraith in the pdf. The idea here is that you misdirect an opponent's attack onto a second enemy, but to avoid a complex interrupt mechanic, this is not the actual attack in game terms - instead you just use the effect of one of their attacks. Conceptually it is an attack that misses you and instead strikes one of their allies. In game terms, you use the damage value of an attack they could have made but never did.

Jarring Blow
Seems out of place and without any flavor. Also, why does the stunning last until the *beginning* of the PC's next turn? I haven't seen powers do that much.

You need a few powers that are generic and will fit in every situation. The disadvantage to giving a power lots of flavor is that it loses in general utility.

Quick Kick
This is Sudden Kick re-concepted, right? Some of the name changes seem...odd. I'm not sure what necessitated changing them.
Your version does none of what I was trying to accomplish with the original, that is blurring the boundary between monsters & terrain. I agree that the original power was too complex, but you've thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

It is similar in description but very different in game terms, so not really a translation of your Sudden Kick at all. I wasn't sure how I'd handle the terrain generating effect of the other one. Corpses in DnD are not generally seen as difficult ground at all (which gives me an idea for a power).

Oil Slick
I feel like such a naysayer. You've come up with cool powers that capture the feel of movies really well. It's just that oil slick is the kind of thing that's so circumstantial it works better as a stunt than a power.

Again, a separate dsicussion. I feel we cannot do without these powers if we are to get a suffuicent number - and having the tool be a requirement makes this a non-issue to me.

Roll With the Blow
I like your version, but it has a different feel. Why push and not shift?
The original was intended to model getting pounded by a strong monster (knocked prone), hence the clause about being able to rise faster. Maybe that's better handled by a feat?

A feat to let you take half damage? Donöt think so. And yes, it is a little odd to give an opponent the opportinity to push you, but I feel it balances the power neatly.

Eagle Eye
Awesome, awesome power. Did you make this one up or was it based on one of mine? Either way, it looks great.

Its based on your See What is Not There, which I got the gist of but couldnöt understand how it was supposed to work.

Even the Field
This is a high-paragon or low-epic power, and it also seems like it belongs to the Ranger not the MC we're working on.
Still, I'm hooked on the basic mechanic about the lingering zone.

Basically, I agree, even if I would see it as a Warlord power and not Ranger. However, those classes have their powers, and I think this can work here - a controller can buff, just not in as direct a way as a leader.

Superior Ground
This seems like a re-tooling of the Canny Positioning class feature. Is that right?

Eh... I didn't think of this as Canny Positioning because I could not grok canny positioning. If it does something similar, I figure that's cool.

 

[Tuft]

Invisible equipment is a major drag for you. I just don't see the problem as very serious at all. If there was a solid stunt system that people actually used I could see an issue, but the short DMG section is very sketchy and also not very rewarding to try and use. (Actually, this could be worth its own separate thread.) Just as a Wizard can pull tricks out of his sleeve and use them in a figurative sense, I don't see a problem with a martial character doing so literally.

What you need is an object in the same mold as an implement/weapon/focus. A bag-of-tricks/toolbox/utility-belt that is a keyword for these powers and thus enables them. And just as with an implement, you can squeeze your players for more expensive and improved versions, giving these powers more and more bonus as they level up.

 

[Starfox]

Tuft, note that the Daredevil uses weapons as both implements and weapons. In the case of a crossbow, for example, that means that your power to kick hard or throw caltrops is improved because you're holding a crossbow in your hand, using it as an implement. In this case, the weapon is not actually used, it serves more as a confidence boost.

I can see a problem with this, but I feel this is the same problem about suspension of disbelief that the bards Cha-based melee attacks suffer from.