Insider: Character Visualizer canceled?

[Sorrowdusk]

You know to be honest, I never even thought about playing with people who speak other languages, but I guess that would be a possibility. I can certainly play with other people who dont speak english very well, or sometimes not at al in DDO. There's a french guild I've rolled with a few times, and other than ther GL, none of them speak english.

 

[Dausuul]

BUT it's now been 2.5 years since the books for 4e were released (with ads for VTT in the back, no less). WotC has had nearly the same amount of time (or more, who knows?) to create a VTT...and it's still not done.

...and was delayed AGAIN today.

As I understand it, the whole Gleemax thing was a complete fiasco, and WotC bears a large part of the blame for providing inadequate and inconsistent direction to their contractors--there's a reason the phrase "garbage in, garbage out" was invented in the software biz, and it applies to development teams as much as to actual computers. A ludicrous amount of money was wasted on it, to the point that Hasbro descended from on high in wrath. I suspect that WotC's electronic division got put on a very tight leash and a lean budget after that.

 

[Hussar]

The silliness of a voice changer aside, which most other places find an annoyance, rather than a benefit; does it have a language lobby?

Granted you could end up in a game where everyone is typing in a language you don't understand, but if the routine things were done for you, attacks calculated, etc it wouldn't matter "much" as you could squeak through it. But if you are required to hear the DM and they aren't speaking a language you speak, it could be a lot of trouble entering a game and leaving.

So what kind of lobby exists and does it have that choice to set the language as ability to communicate is a high requirement for these types of games?

I honestly don't know. I've never used the program, so I can't answer that.

Would be a great idea. Usually in any VTT program lobby I've seen, people tend to have passwords on their rooms and then invite people from various parts of the internet - forums, that sort of thing. So, I imagine that it's fairly self policing. I'm pretty sure that the WOTC system is the same - so it's unlikely you can just walk into a game without some sort of introduction first.

People do leave the door open when they're recruiting, but, it's typically pretty rare for rooms to be open when the actual game is going on. At least in my experience.

 

[shadzar]

Thanks Hussar, thought you had used it. Guess it will be where people have to wait until the beta is open to see if such problems or concerns arise, then they have to go back and develop something for language arbitration to "match" players.

You know to be honest, I never even thought about playing with people who speak other languages, but I guess that would be a possibility. I can certainly play with other people who dont speak english very well, or sometimes not at al in DDO. There's a french guild I've rolled with a few times, and other than ther GL, none of them speak english.

It can easily be done with an MMO because most times you dont need to say anything and can just button mash. Even MtG you could play an online game without even talking and the game takes care of all the things for you.

If the VTT does nothing for you though and since D&D you have to pay attention to the DM, unless playing scripted adventures where the DM can send players a pop-up of the descriptions where the system can give you the proper language, then there could easily be problems with language barriers. That is why many places have, at least, a drop-down list to select your language form so others can see, but it doesnt prevent people from lying and wasting other peopels time, unless they will use VOiP to have you say something like a sentence to force set your language so you cant choose it, but can still play in other games if you want to, so people don't lie about their language.

If not having non-english speaker acoed for, then what is the point of website that anyone in the world can use, and why mis the ability for those non-english speaker to become involved and lose their money, I they banking bit has even been figured out where people outside the US can even subscribe to DDi?

 

[Shemeska]

As I understand it, the whole Gleemax thing was a complete fiasco, and WotC bears a large part of the blame for providing inadequate and inconsistent direction to their contractors--there's a reason the phrase "garbage in, garbage out" was invented in the software biz, and it applies to development teams as much as to actual computers. A ludicrous amount of money was wasted on it, to the point that Hasbro descended from on high in wrath. I suspect that WotC's electronic division got put on a very tight leash and a lean budget after that.

Absolutely this.

 

[Hussar]

But, Shadzar, non-English speaking gamers would do the exact same thing as English speaking gamers - go to forums in their own language and look for games.

Think of it like a massive, ongoing convention. At a con, sure there are pick up games where you can sit down and play, but, most games require you to register beforehand. This is no different. It's not like an MMO where, if you're like me, your schedule forces you to play on the Japanese servers where no one speaks English.

I don't think most people log onto the VTT as their primary source for finding games. They're likely going to go to the website dedicated to games using that VTT (or any VTT for that matter) and then look for games. And, really, it's not going to be a big surprise when someone sits down and doesn't speak the language - they're going to know in about 10 seconds. Heck, the room title often gives it away. If your room title is in Chinese characters, and everyone is typing in Hiragana, it's probably not a Native English speaking room.

Considering how social D&D is, I couldn't imagine trying to play it with people who can't understand me. I have enough trouble being understood in my own language.

 

[shadzar]

But, Shadzar, non-English speaking gamers would do the exact same thing as English speaking gamers - go to forums in their own language and look for games.

Think of it like a massive, ongoing convention. At a con, sure there are pick up games where you can sit down and play, but, most games require you to register beforehand. This is no different. It's not like an MMO where, if you're like me, your schedule forces you to play on the Japanese servers where no one speaks English.

I don't think most people log onto the VTT as their primary source for finding games. They're likely going to go to the website dedicated to games using that VTT (or any VTT for that matter) and then look for games. And, really, it's not going to be a big surprise when someone sits down and doesn't speak the language - they're going to know in about 10 seconds. Heck, the room title often gives it away. If your room title is in Chinese characters, and everyone is typing in Hiragana, it's probably not a Native English speaking room.

Considering how social D&D is, I couldn't imagine trying to play it with people who can't understand me. I have enough trouble being understood in my own language.

Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.

So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers?

Now I must seriously ask you this question, before I can respond to other parts of your post. How much of a multiplayer computer gamer are you?

OpenRPG, MapTools, I think even that pay one KludgeWorks offers a sort of lobby, as do most things to connect people to play, so why wouldn't there be a place to meet new people within the software itself.

If you have to jump to the WotC forums to find a game that is just silly, even NWN used the WON Network I think where you connected to a server and were presented with a list of games, PWs, etc to join; and MtGO has a lobby to just play with however, but granted it is a different type of game requiring only 2 people and lasting les time than D&D would.

Many people NOT knowing anyone to play with is where the VTTs shine if they can provide the ability to meet new people and play that have the same type of schedule as them, because they met them at 2am Tuesday night, odds are they have that time free to game, so scheduling conflicts would be few and far between, and that is a big obtsacle for TTRPGs, that VTTRPGs would easily overcome.

 

[Hussar]

Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.

So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers?

Now I must seriously ask you this question, before I can respond to other parts of your post. How much of a multiplayer computer gamer are you?

OpenRPG, MapTools, I think even that pay one KludgeWorks offers a sort of lobby, as do most things to connect people to play, so why wouldn't there be a place to meet new people within the software itself.

If you have to jump to the WotC forums to find a game that is just silly, even NWN used the WON Network I think where you connected to a server and were presented with a list of games, PWs, etc to join; and MtGO has a lobby to just play with however, but granted it is a different type of game requiring only 2 people and lasting les time than D&D would.

Many people NOT knowing anyone to play with is where the VTTs shine if they can provide the ability to meet new people and play that have the same type of schedule as them, because they met them at 2am Tuesday night, odds are they have that time free to game, so scheduling conflicts would be few and far between, and that is a big obtsacle for TTRPGs, that VTTRPGs would easily overcome.

Sure, you can go into the lobby to find games. However, most games have closed doors since they aren't specifically looking for new players. As I said, some people recruit directly from the lobby, but, most people recruit from a forum.

Comparisons to MMO's really break down here. Playing on a VTT has very little in common with an MMO. Unless a DM is actively recruiting or running a one shot, why would he leave the door open for new players. If he is running a one shot, people come in, he gets enough people to play and then closes the door to stop interruptions.

It would be very strange to come in in the middle of play and sit down. Which you can do with an MMO but, would be the same as walking into your FLGS, plunking yourself down at the table with an ongoing game in progress and expecting to play.

It's far more likely someone would go to the WOTC site, go to the forums and see what's being advertised. A quick search usually will turn up posts with the appropriate time slot.

Playing in a VTT game is not really all that different from playing in a regular face to face game. You have to build the group, get everyone bought into the system and the game, all the good stuff that happens around your kitchen table (or where ever you play).

 

[shadzar]

Sure, you can go into the lobby to find games. However, most games have closed doors since they aren't specifically looking for new players. As I said, some people recruit directly from the lobby, but, most people recruit from a forum.

Comparisons to MMO's really break down here. Playing on a VTT has very little in common with an MMO. Unless a DM is actively recruiting or running a one shot, why would he leave the door open for new players. If he is running a one shot, people come in, he gets enough people to play and then closes the door to stop interruptions.

It would be very strange to come in in the middle of play and sit down. Which you can do with an MMO but, would be the same as walking into your FLGS, plunking yourself down at the table with an ongoing game in progress and expecting to play.

It's far more likely someone would go to the WOTC site, go to the forums and see what's being advertised. A quick search usually will turn up posts with the appropriate time slot.

Sure many may meet elsewhere and decide to game at Time X, but there are probably people that will just appear.

Having a spectator option would let people see if they want to use the VTT, or if they want to join a game by being able to see how the group plays.

Playing in a VTT game is not really all that different from playing in a regular face to face game. You have to build the group, get everyone bought into the system and the game, all the good stuff that happens around your kitchen table (or where ever you play).

We all wish it was that simple, but since this is the internet, and being able to game with anyone, the building a group first, sort of defeats the purpose of the VTT, where you can find people to play with. You need to be able to meet with new people to play since oyu might not have a group to begin with. Also one of the big advantages to a VTT that you don't always have to have a planned group.

While the size may be that of a convention, there is more of a game store feel to it, where you don't really get to choose your entire group beforehand, but can find tables with an empty seat and sit down to play, much as you can any online poker game.

You have the DMs game descriptions so can join if those interest you and start working things out, or come with a character for the DM to approve if they have any restrictions, and start playing with the random group of people, much like a games day.

Well you had to register for them, but players weren't assigned to tables first, but more like a MtG tournament, after everyone was ready people were randomly seated.

There needs to be that option to play with random strangers for the VTT to fully achieve its potential.

Some might use it so they dont have to drive to play at one person's kitchen table, but others will love the ability to grab a one-shot with random people, when they don't have a game, but have that gaming itch, much like most online games where you join a group of people and play, Halo, CoD, whatever.

 

[Hussar]

Shadzar - your comparisons all fail to take into account the realities of actually playing an RPG. In a poker event, you might have to wait until the current hand is finished to join a game - by and large a matter of minutes and each hand is a distinct event. Even MtG tournaments don't really work, since you aren't playing a single MtG game for four hours.

Imagine trying to fit in someone who sits at your table, a complete stranger, two hours into the fifteenth session of your ongoing game. It's just not going to happen. Heck, even in a one shot, you're not going to add a player two hours in. You gather the group first, get your requisite number of players and off you go to play.

Would work nicely for Living events I think. Living DM steps into the lobby says, "I need five players with Living characters level X to do Adventure Y". But, after he's got those five players, he's not likely to accept any more.

Spectators are fine, so long as they can't post to the chat. In OpenRPG and Maptool you can't really prevent a user from posting to chat once they're inside, so, perhaps some sort of control there would be groovy. But, then again, I'm not sure how many people want to silently spectate on a game. Depends who's playing I suppose.

Sure, the DM can put a game description on his room in the lobby, including restrictions, but, once he's got his X players, that room is going to be full and most likely closes.

The best anology I can think of is honestly convention play. You sign up for the convention (get a DDI account) take a look at the list of games on offer before the con (go to the forum(s) and find a group) and then show up on the pre-arranged day and start playing.

You're talking about one shot pick up games which I'm sure people will do. But, for an ongoing campaign, you're likely going to need at the very least a thread on a forum somewhere to keep track of things. Better still, create a forum (proboards is good for this as are the various wiki resources) and you have your own little corner of the internet to work from.

I think the idea that you boot up the DDI, just like you would a FPS like Halo, join a server and start playing is not how VTT play is ever going to work.