Insightful Strike and Weak Spot, should it work?

[Philip]

I recently made a crazy Chatka throwing Ranger3/SwashBuckler3/Master Thrower 5/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Thri-kreen build.

Do you get synergy out of the Insightful Strike and Weak Spot abilities? In other words: do you get to make ranged touch attacks and add your intelligence modifier (but not your strength) to the damage dealt?

Weak Spot (Ex): A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level. When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her Strength bonus to the damage.

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd lvl a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as rapier whip or spiked chain. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler's insightful strike. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when weering medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Edit: replaced the Gythka with a Chatka (Thri-kreen crystaline throwing wedge, 1d6/18-20.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Looks to me like it should work. Cool, too. I like it.

 

[brehobit]

I recently made a crazy Gythka throwing Ranger3/SwashBuckler3/Master Thrower 5/Exotic Weapon Master 1 Thri-kreen build.

Do you get synergy out of the Insightful Strike and Weak Spot abilities? In other words: do you get to make ranged touch attacks and add your intelligence modifier (but not your strength) to the damage dealt?

Can you finesse ranged attacks? My reading would be that you could only use insightful strike on finesse attacks, and (AFAIK) you can't finesse a ranged attack.

Interesting idea though.

Mark

 

[Hypersmurf]

My reading would be that you could only use insightful strike on finesse attacks...

Looks like you can use it with any light weapon, or any weapon that can be used with Finesse.

It doesn't say you can only use it if you are using Weapon Finesse.

-Hyp.

 

[brehobit]

Looks like you can use it with any light weapon, or any weapon that can be used with Finesse.

It doesn't say you can only use it if you are using Weapon Finesse.

-Hyp.

becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage

I guess it depends if you view the "finesse" her as flavor text or part of the rule.
I read it as part of the rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage

Oh, gotcha. I didn't even notice it hiding in there.

I'm now inclined to agree that Insightful Strike can only be used when utilising the Weapon Finesse feat... but I can see how it could be easily argued that "finesse attack" is not a defined mechanical term and is thus flavour.

For example, if a Duelist were the subject of a Bull's Strength spell, giving him a higher Str modifier than Dex modifier, would you allow him to apply Int bonus to damage if he does not use his Dex bonus for the attack roll?

-Hyp.

 

[brehobit]

Oh, gotcha. I didn't even notice it hiding in there.

I'm now inclined to agree that Insightful Strike can only be used when utilising the Weapon Finesse feat... but I can see how it could be easily argued that "finesse attack" is not a defined mechanical term and is thus flavour.

For example, if a Duelist were the subject of a Bull's Strength spell, giving him a higher Str modifier than Dex modifier, would you allow him to apply Int bonus to damage if he does not use his Dex bonus for the attack roll?

My reading would say no. I'd guess that is the intent of the ability, but...

 

[drnuncheon]

Looks like you can use it with any light weapon, or any weapon that can be used with Finesse.

Note that doesn't include ranged weapons - they don't get the light/one-handed/two-handed distinction (that's only for melee weapons) and they can't be used with finesse.

That still leaves the possibility of throwable melee weapons open, as they do have the 'light' category, so you'd have to make a judgement call on whether the intent of the swashbuckler ability is to only raise melee damage or not. I'd say it is, but it's not crystal clear.

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

That still leaves the possibility of throwable melee weapons open, as they do have the 'light' category...

Right.

Gythka certainly aren't light. But darts and shuriken are treated as light weapons - certainly at least when you're throwing with each hand. I'm away from my books, but I'd assume chatkcha would be the same.

-Hyp.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

It looks legitimate to me. Weapon Finesse is all about finding and exploiting an opening already extant rather than forcing through your opponent's defenses with brute force to create an opening.

Insightful Strike seems to me, like the rogue's sneak attack, to be about hitting vital spots. I don't think that it depends on strength, it's just that it is assumed that a swashbuckler is built on weapon finesse rather that mega-damage doling.

Weak Spot, too, looks like an option for exploiting the chink in the armor, and as it only works on targets larger than the character, the advantage it grants makes sense and looks balanced to me, even in synergy with the other two abilities.

If you were stacking STR and INT bonuses to damage, then I might see a problem, but as is, I would allow this in my game long before I allowed a thri-kreen PC.