Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[roguerouge]

I agree with Nifft. That's like using rage twice and wanting +8 str and con.

The bonuses from two rages don't stack.

I have to say that I'm finding this to be an interesting idea.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Ah, but you seem to have missed my point.

As written, you can maintain mutiple songs at once, if none of them require concentration. That's that way it is written, and that's what I am not allowed to do by my DM (which I am not trying to overrule; that ship has sailed ).

As written, you can have Courage, Greatness and Heriocs all maintained at the same time as long as you do not do one of the things that you are not allowed to do while maintaining bardic music. That would be any of "...cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word." Using a Supernatural ability (like another of the "Inspire" bardic music abilities) is not on the list!

Right?

But Heroics takes a full round action to gain effect.

Technically, it doesn't say all Bardic abiities require concentration: only some. I wish it was written better: saying stuff like Song of freedom, inspire competence and Fascinate require standard actions to maintain.

That would be clear.

 

[mvincent]

Inspire Greatness is a Su ability. It would seem, therefore, that one can start Inspire Greatness without stopping the Inspire Courage.

Good catch. That is an interesting RAW glitch/loophole. Excellent find.

Curious though: do think it is RAI? Do you think many DM's would allow it? Would you?

 

[Artoomis]

But Heroics takes a full round action to gain effect.

Technically, it doesn't say all Bardic abiities require concentration: only some. I wish it was written better: saying stuff like Song of freedom, inspire competence and Fascinate require standard actions to maintain.

That would be clear.

Inspire Heriocs does take a full round to take effect, but it is not a full round action. Not that this would matter, anyway. But... "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action."

Thus one could start the Inspire Heroics and then move, for example, and that woudl be legal. No effect form the Inspire Effects for one full round, true, but it ionly costs the bard one standard action to get it going.

 

[Nifft]

Good catch. That is an interesting RAW glitch/loophole. Excellent find.

Curious though: do think it is RAI? Do you think many DM's would allow it? Would you?

It's not actually a loop hole.

Inspire Courage isn't in itself a class ability, it's a use of the underlying class ability (Bardic Music). This is similar to Wild Shape (tiny) and Wild Shape (plant). You can't gain the benefit of Wild Shape twice at the same time, nor can you use Bardic Music twice at the same time.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Artoomis]

Good catch. That is an interesting RAW glitch/loophole. Excellent find.

Curious though: do think it is RAI? Do you think many DM's would allow it? Would you?

1, RAI: I am not positive. The rules around how actions and abilities are so clear cut that I think maybe it was intended, but, then gain, maybe not. Maybe they just thought is was obvious you can't do this, but than published rules that say you can, if you want to. It's certain that not many folks noticed that this was possible.

2. Many DMs? Maybe not. Not mine, anyway.

3. Sure, I'd allow it. It is the primary thing bards do, and is somewhat balanced by the fact that no one is going unnoticed while wandering around making that much noise. Of course, one could take that subsonics feat that lets you be essentially silent when using bardic music abilites, and that makes it a biot more poerful - but that's what a feat is supposed to do, so what the heck!

 

[Artoomis]

It's not actually a loop hole.

Inspire Courage isn't in itself a class ability, it's a use of the underlying class ability (Bardic Music). This is similar to Wild Shape (tiny) and Wild Shape (plant). You can't gain the benefit of Wild Shape twice at the same time, nor can you use Bardic Music twice at the same time.

Cheers, -- N

Why not?

Inspire Courage is defined as an ability. These abilities all fall into the "category of bardic music," but that, in and of itself, does not mean you can't use the "Inspire" abilities at the same time.

Now if you can find and actual rule to back you up, that would be of interest.

Your current argument is of the "intuitively obvious to even the most casual observor" sort that then fails to produce any actaul evidene to back it up.

You are saying that you cannot use two bardic music "Inspire" abilities at once.

Why not? I have showed why you can, citing rules to back me up. All you have done is shown how, in two cited cases, you cannot have two certain class abilites active at one time, but I say that this is situational and depends upon the abilites in question.

No rule says you cannot have two class abilities active at one time.

On the other hand, the rules do say that the three "Inspire" abilities are all there own Suabilities inl the "category" of bardic music. They also very specifally say what you cannot do while keeping one of them active, and starting another Su ability is not one of the things that stops an "inspire" ability from working.

Seems clear-cut, at least to me.

 

[Artoomis]

How many times per day can you use this discrete Su ability?

-- N

All abilities that are of the category "bardic music" may be used, in total, up to 1 time per day per level.

 

[mvincent]

Inspire Courage isn't in itself a class ability, it's a use of the underlying class ability (Bardic Music). This is similar to Wild Shape (tiny) and Wild Shape (plant).

I see your point, but Wildshape is list as:
"Wild Shape (Su)"

Conversely Bardic Music has:
Countersong (Su)
Fascinate (Sp)
Inspire Courage (Su)
Suggestion (Sp)
etc.

... making each kinda seem like a separate ability (especially when they use terminology like "Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability."). Mind you, it's not an issue for me anyways as I'm fairly sure the writer's didn't intend to allow for multiple songs, and I don't expect rules to always be perfectly written.

 

[Nifft]

All abilities that are of the category "bardic music" may be used, in total, up to 1 time per day per level.

Not quite. You've just said that EACH may be used once per day per level.

How it works is: Bardic Music can be used 1/day per level. You may use your Bardic Music ability in the following ways ... (Su), (Sp), etc.

Cheers, -- N