Instant Friends

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

And for that matter, even if you could turn Orcus into your friend, would you really want to?

This calls for a new YouTube video from WotC: Orcus & the Gnome

"So I called my mom last night and I was like 'Guess what?' and she was like 'What?' and I said 'Me and Orcus are best friends forever!' and she was like 'Who's Orcus?' and then the power wore off and Orcus ate my soul. Rawr!"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

But, even if I generally liked skill challenges, I would still feel that a wizard using a daily to "win" one was acceptable - esp given the risk involved. More out of combat spells, I say!

A single daily utility power wins you an encounter? That would be one massively trivial encounter. It surely isn't worth anything like that in any reasonably challenging encounter. More like maybe in a more complex SC it will give you say an auto-success, or maybe you should get a +2 bonus with certain other primary skills. It is equivalent of a fighter poping of RoS in an at-level combat encounter. It sure should make it somewhat easier, but it shouldn't be causing the enemy to just keel over dead.

Except... In the case I present above where the ruler of a region has a trusted adviser that sits in with him during audiences and can detect the use of such spells.

Sure, you can come up with a counter for any possible use. That's exactly part of the point. Being a plot busting type of power it tends to make DMs jump through hoops. The DM should be making the PLAYERS jump through the hoops, not the other way around.

Using this logic, there's no risk in disguising your entire party as orcs with Phantom Mask and marching past the planned orc encounter the DM had... So much for that "negating" theory you have.

It's totally flavorful and fits in with established sword & sorcery fiction.

Lots of things have appeared in S&S fiction that I probably will not use as low level powers for PCs, lol. As for the example of Phantom Mask there are SEVERAL things to be said about that. 1st it is a level SIXTEEN utility power. It lasts 5 MINUTES. SURE it is useful, but notice that it is much higher level than Instant Friends, much easier to adjudicate, and is far less likely to have far reaching benefits for the players. I don't see any real comparison at all.

I don't see the difference in nerfing a ritual and nerfing a power. The player expects rituals to work the same as they expect powers to work. By minimizing the ritual, like you're doing, you're saying that one part of the system is fine for DMs to muck with, but one part isn't. I don't get that.

If I nerf your powers I've taken away a finite resource that you had that you gave up in order to get that power. If I nerf your ritual it is just some thing you paid 125gp for however many levels ago. You could have every single 4th level ritual in the book by 9th level and barely notice the dent in your wallet. That IS a significant difference. It is exactly the kind of difference between a GOOD game design and an not so good game design (multiplied over 100's of similar decisions). Understanding that is exactly the reason that the 4e design was so solid to begin with.

I don't think anyone is biased against ritual magic. Seems more like people are biased against utility magic that's not a ritual.

Really? All I hear is rituals suck. If they're so good then why are you so big on this being a power? lol. I mean come on!

"I like to be lazy and just use feather fall when I climb really high instead of using my climb skill..." "I like to be lazy about it and just whip out my Disguise Self spell instead of taking the time to use Bluff and come up with fake elf ears..."

Except you meet people you need to influence CONSTANTLY, in fact that is basically all that social interaction IS. A Charm Person effect is like a magic sword that just lops off enemies heads automatically. It's the Vorpal Weapon of social conflict, there is a HUGE FLAMING DIFFERENCE between Feather Fall and Instant Friends and if you can't see it then I don't know what to say. You're suffering a temporary drastic dearth of imagination. I KNOW as a player I can use it to devastating effect. I know my players can to, we've played together for a LONG time and I'm 100% certain in 5 minutes they'd find a way to do something with it that the DM will NOT like.

It's low level because it's not that powerful. Seriously. It's not.

A) You can't use it in combat. So, getting to a position to actually engage with the creature in a non-hostile manner is a challenge in and of itself. Meaning, you can't really use this on creatures who don't like you that well in the first place. Not unless you capture them and restrain them. Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting challenge!

It is trivially easy to bypass the combat clause. Almost any encounter is going to involve enemies either moving up to each other, where they often don't instantly fight, especially if one side (the PCs) makes like they might talk, surrender, etc? How about surprise, it really isn't that hard to get. Obviously you can find situations where this isn't possible, but in at least 80% of all situations I can get the party within range of that power without rolling initiative.

B) It's not automatic. It's not very effective against creatures of higher level. As a DM, you control what level creatures are... Hmmm...

Actually it is quite effective. A wizard with a decent WIS bonus can absolutely charm higher level figures with a high degree of reliability. Given an Orb of Karmic Resonance I can actually make the spell 100% reliable (there are probably other ways too, anything that allows you to cause a target to fail a save will work). Basically a decent orb wizard build will succeed a large amount of the time against any creature he's likely to meet.

Besides, we already disposed of the fallacy that making something unreliable stops it from being flawed. This is an almost trivially dismissed error in game design. Granted it crops up often enough, but it has always been wrong and always will be.

C) It's not a "win button" - so let's assume you capture them, they're not higher level than you, and you FINALLY get to use Instant Friends. So what? They'll give you all the good information that as a DM you should WANT your players to have. They don't do much for you, they won't risk property (like give you anything) and they won't risk their life (like fight for you or do anything that endangers them, like give out something that'll get them killed...).

So, really... This is totally blown out of proportion in my humble opinion. It's not that great of a power. It's just flavorful, interesting, and fun. It gives a little power to players who have that douchebag DM that gives auto-failures on Diplomacy checks.

Well, I'm sorry but some bad DM somewhere isn't an excuse for anything, lol. YES being able to charm people like that IS kind of a win button. Here's an exercise for you, go out and just wander around and do your normal stuff for a day and imagine what you could get away with if once during the day you could just make any one person be your best buddy. Now think about what someone who's basically rootless and at least marginally amoral (your average adventurer) and who isn't really bound by any social conventions can do with it. Crap, you could probably rule the world with Charm Person.

 

[LostSoul]

I like it, but I think it should have a Requirement.

Requirement: Your DM acts as an impartial referee and does not have a pre-plotted outcome for the game.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Sure, you can come up with a counter for any possible use. That's exactly part of the point. Being a plot busting type of power it tends to make DMs jump through hoops. The DM should be making the PLAYERS jump through the hoops, not the other way around.

I disagree in part. The players should occasionally throw a big spanner in the DM's best laid plans (especially railroading plans...), and the DM should be flexible (and gracious) enough about it to "wing it". Some of the best and most memorable games I've had (both as player and DM) were when the PCs did exactly that, and the DM "ran with it". Spells like Instant Friends add more randomness to the plot and give the PCs more power over the direction it takes. This inevitably leads to greater player/story engagement. And that's what we all want!

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

I like it, but I think it should have a Requirement.

Requirement: Your DM acts as an impartial referee and does not have a pre-plotted outcome for the game.

All other DMs can houserule as they see fit. Like every other mechanic in the game.

 

[Zaran]

So if an essentials product gets errata'd will they actually update the printed product? =)

 

[P1NBACK]

I like it, but I think it should have a Requirement.

Requirement: Your DM acts as an impartial referee and does not have a pre-plotted outcome for the game.

Exactly.

 

[Garthanos]

Oooooh look we might have to role play and make some choices and our characters might use some skills for ... cant have that.. quick wizard cast a spell and fix it.... waaaaahhhhh The DM is railroading me.

Now lets get that level 17 fighter power that disarms and takes away the enemy weapon down to level 2 please.

 

[Garthanos]

a single daily utility power wins you an encounter? That would be one massively trivial encounter. It surely isn't worth anything like that in any reasonably challenging encounter. More like maybe in a more complex sc it will give you say an auto-success, or maybe you should get a +2 bonus with certain other primary skills. It is equivalent of a fighter poping of ros in an at-level combat encounter. It sure should make it somewhat easier, but it shouldn't be causing the enemy to just keel over dead.



Sure, you can come up with a counter for any possible use. That's exactly part of the point. Being a plot busting type of power it tends to make dms jump through hoops. The dm should be making the players jump through the hoops, not the other way around.



Lots of things have appeared in s&s fiction that i probably will not use as low level powers for pcs, lol. As for the example of phantom mask there are several things to be said about that. 1st it is a level sixteen utility power. It lasts 5 minutes. Sure it is useful, but notice that it is much higher level than instant friends, much easier to adjudicate, and is far less likely to have far reaching benefits for the players. I don't see any real comparison at all.




If i nerf your powers i've taken away a finite resource that you had that you gave up in order to get that power. If i nerf your ritual it is just some thing you paid 125gp for however many levels ago. You could have every single 4th level ritual in the book by 9th level and barely notice the dent in your wallet. That is a significant difference. It is exactly the kind of difference between a good game design and an not so good game design (multiplied over 100's of similar decisions). Understanding that is exactly the reason that the 4e design was so solid to begin with.



Really? All i hear is rituals suck. If they're so good then why are you so big on this being a power? Lol. I mean come on!



Except you meet people you need to influence constantly, in fact that is basically all that social interaction is. A charm person effect is like a magic sword that just lops off enemies heads automatically. It's the vorpal weapon of social conflict, there is a huge flaming difference between feather fall and instant friends and if you can't see it then i don't know what to say. You're suffering a temporary drastic dearth of imagination. I know as a player i can use it to devastating effect. I know my players can to, we've played together for a long time and i'm 100% certain in 5 minutes they'd find a way to do something with it that the dm will not like.



It is trivially easy to bypass the combat clause. Almost any encounter is going to involve enemies either moving up to each other, where they often don't instantly fight, especially if one side (the pcs) makes like they might talk, surrender, etc? How about surprise, it really isn't that hard to get. Obviously you can find situations where this isn't possible, but in at least 80% of all situations i can get the party within range of that power without rolling initiative.



Actually it is quite effective. A wizard with a decent wis bonus can absolutely charm higher level figures with a high degree of reliability. Given an orb of karmic resonance i can actually make the spell 100% reliable (there are probably other ways too, anything that allows you to cause a target to fail a save will work). Basically a decent orb wizard build will succeed a large amount of the time against any creature he's likely to meet.

Besides, we already disposed of the fallacy that making something unreliable stops it from being flawed. This is an almost trivially dismissed error in game design. Granted it crops up often enough, but it has always been wrong and always will be.



Well, i'm sorry but some bad dm somewhere isn't an excuse for anything, lol. Yes being able to charm people like that is kind of a win button. Here's an exercise for you, go out and just wander around and do your normal stuff for a day and imagine what you could get away with if once during the day you could just make any one person be your best buddy. Now think about what someone who's basically rootless and at least marginally amoral (your average adventurer) and who isn't really bound by any social conventions can do with it. Crap, you could probably rule the world with charm person.

qft

I wanted to say more really... but yes it can be made an auto success and yes its pretty much undermines diplomacy completely... and yes any amount of imagination and its off the charts too powerful.

 

[P1NBACK]

Oh, how'd I miss this. Thanks for quoting it dude.

A single daily utility power wins you an encounter? That would be one massively trivial encounter. It surely isn't worth anything like that in any reasonably challenging encounter. More like maybe in a more complex SC it will give you say an auto-success, or maybe you should get a +2 bonus with certain other primary skills. It is equivalent of a fighter poping of RoS in an at-level combat encounter. It sure should make it somewhat easier, but it shouldn't be causing the enemy to just keel over dead.

How does it let you win an encounter? As stated many, many times, at best you have overcome one obstacle. As stated many, many times, Instant Friends does not force someone to "keel over dead". They're still their own person. They're not dominated. They're still free-thinking creatures. The only difference is now their disposition toward you has changed (and not even toward your allies).

Sure, you can come up with a counter for any possible use. That's exactly part of the point. Being a plot busting type of power it tends to make DMs jump through hoops. The DM should be making the PLAYERS jump through the hoops, not the other way around.

Not at all. You're using an extreme example of talking with a ruler of a region or someone very powerful. I'm saying, most of those people in a fantasy world would likely be wary of magic during audiences... So, it would make sense for them to have something like this in place.

The same would be true of any of the spells that let you "reroll a diplomacy check" or whatever. It's not a "counter" any more than giving monsters a fortified location is a "counter" to them attacking... It's just part of the story.

Lots of things have appeared in S&S fiction that I probably will not use as low level powers for PCs, lol. As for the example of Phantom Mask there are SEVERAL things to be said about that. 1st it is a level SIXTEEN utility power. It lasts 5 MINUTES. SURE it is useful, but notice that it is much higher level than Instant Friends, much easier to adjudicate, and is far less likely to have far reaching benefits for the players. I don't see any real comparison at all.

I used Phantom Mask as an example of a "ritual-like" spell.

That said, it is a higher level version of Disguise Self. Diguise Self is low level (6th), lasts for hours, works on you alone, and can allow you to overcome a skill challenge entirely (or not) depending on the circumstances. Sounds very much like Instant Friends.

Skill Challenge: Sneak in to the castle.
Player: I use Disguise Self and waltz right in.
DM: Oh... Ok. You're in.

If I nerf your powers I've taken away a finite resource that you had that you gave up in order to get that power.

I'm not giving up anything to get a Utility power. It's a bonus I get at 2nd level. And, if you nerf one of those, I still get to pick others. Again, rituals are the same. At certain levels, I can buy rituals and if you nerf one there are others I can spend my gold on instead.

Trying to justify nerfing one aspect of the game and not the other is kind of whack in my opinion.

Really? All I hear is rituals suck. If they're so good then why are you so big on this being a power? lol. I mean come on!

Who said "rituals suck" in this thread? I don't see it.

Except you meet people you need to influence CONSTANTLY, in fact that is basically all that social interaction IS.

Exactly. And, you can use this ONCE PER DAY. So, meeting people constantly means you aren't going to be able to use this spell to overcome many obstacles at all.

I might have to use it to get the audience with the ruler in the first place, then all of a sudden I can't use it on the ruler! Oh no!

A Charm Person effect is like a magic sword that just lops off enemies heads automatically. It's the Vorpal Weapon of social conflict, there is a HUGE FLAMING DIFFERENCE between Feather Fall and Instant Friends and if you can't see it then I don't know what to say. You're suffering a temporary drastic dearth of imagination. I KNOW as a player I can use it to devastating effect. I know my players can to, we've played together for a LONG time and I'm 100% certain in 5 minutes they'd find a way to do something with it that the DM will NOT like.

Lol. I think you're the one suffering from delusions man.

Getting someone to change their disposition toward you is the same as lopping someone's head off? ... Ha. Nice. Talk about hyperbole.

Nah. Not really at all. Again, you're going into "win button" mode here and you said earlier you weren't saying it was a win button.

So... which is it? Is it a win button or not?

It is trivially easy to bypass the combat clause. Almost any encounter is going to involve enemies either moving up to each other, where they often don't instantly fight, especially if one side (the PCs) makes like they might talk, surrender, etc? How about surprise, it really isn't that hard to get. Obviously you can find situations where this isn't possible, but in at least 80% of all situations I can get the party within range of that power without rolling initiative.

Yeah, if it's a situation where one group might talk, then it's obvious this power should be used. That doesn't mean the party "wins" automatically.

Let's take an example:

Group of bad guys go up to the party.
They start to talk. Wizard uses Instant Friends on one of them.
"Wtf? Why is Bob acting like that? They must have used magic! Attack!"

Actually it is quite effective. A wizard with a decent WIS bonus can absolutely charm higher level figures with a high degree of reliability. Given an Orb of Karmic Resonance I can actually make the spell 100% reliable (there are probably other ways too, anything that allows you to cause a target to fail a save will work). Basically a decent orb wizard build will succeed a large amount of the time against any creature he's likely to meet.

Lol... So, you're fine with the Phantom Mask because it's high level. But, a 13th level magic item (only 3 levels below) isn't high enough level - even when it requires TWO daily powers to be spent?

Your logic is totally inconsistent.

Well, I'm sorry but some bad DM somewhere isn't an excuse for anything, lol. YES being able to charm people like that IS kind of a win button. Here's an exercise for you, go out and just wander around and do your normal stuff for a day and imagine what you could get away with if once during the day you could just make any one person be your best buddy. Now think about what someone who's basically rootless and at least marginally amoral (your average adventurer) and who isn't really bound by any social conventions can do with it. Crap, you could probably rule the world with Charm Person.

So... it IS a win button now?

To expand on your exercise:

Go to a trusted friend. Ask them to hurt themselves or someone for you. Ask them to rip off their work for you. Ask them to betray another friend for you. Ask them to give you your car. Ask them to fight someone with you. Ask them to give you money without having to pay it back.

Nearly every example of an amoral adventurer involves property and risking life.

This power is just an info dump power. It doesn't mean you "dominate" the individual. That's just laughable. This power isn't even that great. It'd be much better if it said, "The creature is totally in love with you and does anything you ask of it." It doesn't. It just simply doesn't. It's a good way to get the truthful information out of a turtle'd up NPC.

Making it more than that is just plain unreasonable.