Insubstantial and weakened
- Thread starter sammy
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lukelightning
First Post
Sure.
And if you're short a cleric or paladin?
Hey, if assuming parties always have the right kind of attack is good enough for trolls, it's good enough for wraiths!
Nail
First Post
You know what they say about the word "assume", right?
the Jester
Legend
Sure.
And if you're short a cleric or paladin?
Then you know what to make your replacement character!
Seriously, though, there are lots of other ways to deal radiant damage- though admittedly very few for martial characters (there are always items). But if you're short radiant damage. you just struggle through the fight, just like if you're short defenders when you're fighting brutes. No party is optimized for every encounter.
DracoSuave
First Post
Such a monster is fine.
Having a monster that players have some trouble with is -fine-. This isn't Dragon Quest. It's not a series of random encounters followed up by a climactic endboss. NO monster exists in isolation.
So, you design this monster. Then you have a DM (a sentient being) decide if the monster is appropriate or not. Now, let's say it's 'weakens (save ends)'. Suddenly the leader has to play a minigame where he tries to hand out saving throws so the party can damage the monster. With PHBII and AP out, the chances of having a radiant damager is actually pretty good. (Any Divine character, a Star Lock, Cosmos Sorcerer, off the top of my head). So the game becomes making sure your primary attacker (the radiant attacker) can continue doing so, so that the rest of the party can do the damage.
What, a monster that can set up a mini-game and challenge a party outside of simply being an attack roll and damage roll? Buh Gods, that's a -good monster-.
'But, what if the party doesn't have the tools to fight it?'
Then the DM does his job and either A) sets up traps and hazards in the encounter that can be usurped to fight this thing, or B) uses a different monster.
'Not every party can fight this thing' is not an excuse to disallow well designed 'minigame' monsters. These are opportunities for great encounters.
Having a monster that players have some trouble with is -fine-. This isn't Dragon Quest. It's not a series of random encounters followed up by a climactic endboss. NO monster exists in isolation.
So, you design this monster. Then you have a DM (a sentient being) decide if the monster is appropriate or not. Now, let's say it's 'weakens (save ends)'. Suddenly the leader has to play a minigame where he tries to hand out saving throws so the party can damage the monster. With PHBII and AP out, the chances of having a radiant damager is actually pretty good. (Any Divine character, a Star Lock, Cosmos Sorcerer, off the top of my head). So the game becomes making sure your primary attacker (the radiant attacker) can continue doing so, so that the rest of the party can do the damage.
What, a monster that can set up a mini-game and challenge a party outside of simply being an attack roll and damage roll? Buh Gods, that's a -good monster-.
'But, what if the party doesn't have the tools to fight it?'
Then the DM does his job and either A) sets up traps and hazards in the encounter that can be usurped to fight this thing, or B) uses a different monster.
'Not every party can fight this thing' is not an excuse to disallow well designed 'minigame' monsters. These are opportunities for great encounters.
Surely you're kidding? I cannot imagine any party not having access to radiant damage (except maybe the very first time they're encountering undead monsters if they're new to the game and if they made some pretty non-standard choices when building a party).Sure.
And if you're short a cleric or paladin?
If they don't have powers that do radiant damage, they'll have items that do. Since there are so many undead monsters, it's one of the most useful damage types to have.
This isn't optimizing, it's common sense!
keterys
First Post
You'd be surprised - with the PH2 out, I'd say that a small majority of LFR parties I've seen contain no divine character and have little or no way to deal radiant damage.
Nail
First Post
I see.
It is a good monster if you have a group that likes to play D&D, with a W.O.W. instance mentality where there is a "right way" and all other options are a wrong way. Many people get frustrated by this type of encounter design, (in fact my best friend who Loved WOW percisely for the step by step nature of boss batles hates that in Pen and Paper games).
The 4E Wraith is the new equivalent of the 3e shadow....a monster that historically has not been a "boss" monster, or mover and shaker, and has to be treated with such care as the DM...that many will chuck it, and just use a different monster.
To call something a "Mini-game Monster" is the same as calling it a Niche Monster. I find it perfectly acceptable for people to whole cloth reject a Niche....by your own definition the monster is an exception to regular (and some would say "good) design.
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