Intelligent Weapons Vs. DR

[javcs]

You were basing your decision of Alignment and Manufactured Weapons off of the Alignment Subtype definition.

You're utilizing the Alignment Subtype information only in your analysis. That is a fundamentally flawed approach.
So, you would say that Manufactured Weapons that are magically enhanced to have an alignment (but not the relevant alignment subtype) do not bypass the appropriate DR?
RAW disagrees with you.

Anarchic: An anarchic weapon is chaotically aligned and infused with the power of chaos. It makes the weapon chaos-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of lawful alignment. It bestows one negative level on any lawful creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the chaotic power upon their ammunition.
Moderate evocation [chaotic]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, chaos hammer, creator must be chaotic; Price +2 bonus.
Axiomatic: An axiomatic weapon is lawfully aligned and infused with the power of law. It makes the weapon law-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of chaotic alignment. It bestows one negative level on any chaotic creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the lawful power upon their ammunition.

Emphasis added.
Holy and Unholy are the same. Nowhere does the weapon gain the alignment subtype, it simply becomes 'aligned' or, rather, gains an alignment. Alignment does not equal Alignment Subtype, as I believe we agree upon.

Weapon Type and the Wielder matter because you were using the Alignment Subtype text (which only a creature can have) to make a decision on manufactured weapons bypassing DR that have an alignment, but not a subtype; the text relating to weapon enhancement state that a weapon merely needs to be aligned or have an alignment to bypass the DR - the weapon does not gain the alignment subtype.
Alignment Subtype text doesn't tell us anything about when something doesn't have an Alignment Subtype, only when it does.

 

[prospero63]

You were basing your decision of Alignment and Manufactured Weapons off of the Alignment Subtype definition.

You're utilizing the Alignment Subtype information only in your analysis. That is a fundamentally flawed approach.

Actually, no I'm not. In fact I explicitly called out the concept of align weapon and similar spells and effects and differentiated between "aligning" a weapon and alignment. They aren't the same thing any more than alignment and an alignment subtype are the same thing.

Now, if you want to broaden the discussion beyond whether an intelligent weapon that has an alignment can bypass DR (and it cannot according to the rules) we can certainly do that, but that isn't what the OP asked, and isn't what I have been responding to. Align weapon, weapons that have a specific property such as axiomatic, creatures that have a subtype wielding a weapon are all effectively red herrings. They don't address the original question, the question to which my responses were centered on. If my responses helped to further any confusion or lack of clarity, my apologies, but I think if you read the rest of my response you will find that my opinions aren't contradictory. In fact, I think they are consistent across the board.

So, you would say that Manufactured Weapons that are magically enhanced to have an alignment (but not the relevant alignment subtype) do not bypass the appropriate DR?

Again, this is a bit of a bait and switch. You state "have an alignment" but then proceed to describe a weapon which aligned. Alignment and aligned are not the same thing. Nothing I have previously stated is contradictory with axiomatic, etc. weapons.

Nowhere does the weapon gain the alignment subtype, it simply becomes 'aligned' or, rather, gains an alignment. Alignment does not equal Alignment Subtype, as I believe we agree upon.

We partially agree. Alignment does not equal alignment subtype. But alignment is also not the same as being aligned. IMO you are interchanging the two terms "alignment" and "aligned" and they aren't interchangeable. If you read the RAW they tend to be very specific in whether the terminology used for the description is "aligned" or has an "alignment".

Weapon Type and the Wielder matter because you were using the Alignment Subtype text (which only a creature can have) to make a decision on manufactured weapons bypassing DR that have an alignment, but not a subtype; the text relating to weapon enhancement state that a weapon merely needs to be aligned or have an alignment to bypass the DR - the weapon does not gain the alignment subtype.

Again, you are inserting "or have an alignment" when it doesn't exist in the rules.

Alignment Subtype text doesn't tell us anything about when something doesn't have an Alignment Subtype, only when it does.

Correct. Since it seems you want to expand the discussion, I'm cool with that.

Q: What bypasses DR [evil, chaos, law, good]?
A: The following scenarios provide for the bypassing of DR

1. Any weapon which has been "aligned" through the use of spells or effects such as "align weapon" (this includes any spells which expressly state that they provide for the bypassing of DR)
2. Any weapon which has been given the appropriate special ability such as axiomatic, anarchic, holy or unholy
3. Any weapon or natural attack wielded by a creature with the appropriate alignment subtype such as [Evil], [Good], [Lawful], [Chaotic]

I don't think I missed any scenarios based on the RAW.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. (1)When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and (2)certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A (3)creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

 

[gonzimodo]

The concern I have is that neither the description of "Align Weapon" nor the description of Damage Reduction relies on alignment SUBTYPE. If that were the case, then wouldn't Align Weapon state that it temporarily grants an alignment subtype to a weapon?

All the rules for overcoming DR that I see simply refer to a weapon with an alignment, not a weapon with an alignment subtype. Even the descriptions of holy and unholy swords, for example, just state that they are good-aligned or evil-aligned, which is good enough to overcome DR. They say nothing about having a Good or Evil subtype, just that they are aligned. This implies that an intelligent weapon with the relevant alignment would also overcome DR.

Bringing alignment subtypes into the conversation seems irrelevant, aside from explaining why creatures with natural weapons but no subtype do not overcome DR. Yes, a creature with an alignment subtype can overcome alignment-based DR, but only because its weapons are then treated "...as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment..." Basically, the subtype allows your weapons to be treated as aligned weapons, which is mimicking the characteristics of a holy, unholy, chaotic, axiomatic or intelligent weapon.

 

[gonzimodo]

Incorrect. Alignment in and of itself doesn't bypass DR. It's the alignment subtype that does that, or the application of certain spells/effects that "align" a weapon accordingly (no, align weapon and alignment are not the same thing). I quoted the RAW in my previous post, so I'm not going to do it again.

But what about this from the description of Damage Reduction:

"A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature."

Alignment and alignment subtypes and being "aligned" via spell are obviously different things, but the rule above says that a weapon with an alignment (not just one that is "aligned" or has a subtype) overcomes DR.

However:

"Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

So is it a weapon? Is it a creature/construct? Is it both? I would agree that an intelligent pair of boots or an intelligent wand or some other intelligent, non-weapon magic item would not overcome DR, but I think an intelligent weapon would. Think of it as having the "weapon subtype."

(To be honest, I'm not even sure why I'm continuing to argue this, as I don't think it's ever going to come up in my game, but it's a very interesting argument, and I just disagree with the naysayers on this.)

 

[gonzimodo]

Wow, I just rechecked the SRD, and under the description of Damage Reduction, it says this:

"A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature."

Under the description of the Good, Evil, Chaotic and Lawful subtypes, it says "...A creature with the [] subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were []-aligned..."

So pick your poison. I guess we're ALL right!

 

[Kask]

Say I have a +2 ghost touch sword. It doesn't do squat against alignment-based DR. But what if it's intelligent? Does a LN sword count against DR x/lawful DR?

If your character is LN and you punch someone that has x/lawful DR do you ignore the DR?

There's your answer.

 

[Malachor]

"Alignment and alignment subtypes and being "aligned" via spell are obviously different things, but the rule above says that a weapon with an alignment (not just one that is "aligned" or has a subtype) overcomes DR."
Read the section above that again gonzimodo, seriously.
It's only because a creature with the correct subtype is wielding it that the weapon can affect the applicable DR.
Even if you treat an intelligent weapon as being a creature, it still doesn't have the alignment subtype, so it wouldn't ignore DR, unless it had the axiomatic property.

Although Kask, you're missing the character's race and/or class. Not that I disagree.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMHO a magic weapon should not have additional property without cost. A NG intelligent weapon costs the same as a TN intelligent weapon. Yet, if you allow NG intelligent weapon overcome DR/Lawful, that weapon gets additional property actually useful for combat, without any additional cost.

 

[gonzimodo]

Read the section above that again gonzimodo, seriously.
It's only because a creature with the correct subtype is wielding it that the weapon can affect the applicable DR.

Even if you treat an intelligent weapon as being a creature, it still doesn't have the alignment subtype, so it wouldn't ignore DR, unless it had the axiomatic property.

No, that's not my point. My point is that an alignment subtype allows the creature to act as though its weapons have an alignment, and this allows their weapons to overcome DR. Essentially, the subtype allows them to mimic the ability of a weapon with an alignment, not a weapon that is aligned or a weapon with an alignment subtype, but one with an actual alignment. An intelligent weapon has an alignment, therefore it should overcome DR.

 

[gonzimodo]

Okay, look at it this way:

The language of all the rules we've quoted in this thread indicates that the following would overcome alignment-based DR:

1) A weapon under the effect of an Align Weapon spell of the appropriate type.
2) A weapon with the Holy, Unholy, Chaotic or Axiomatic special ability, as appropriate.
3) A weapon or natural weapon wielded by a creature with an alignment subtype, as appropriate.
4) An intelligent weapon of the appropriate alignment.

All of these cases are completely independent of each other. The only one that is not specifically spelled out is the case of an intelligent weapon, but it is strongly implied by the language in the other cases and the description of Damage Reduction.