Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[Anubis]

Where does it say you can, in the books or the SRD? Or the errata for that matter?

Use some common sense, people!

Think about it:

1) The books and the SRD don't have ANY mention of allowing stacking the same Metamagic Feat.

2) The ELH introduced feats that, if stacking the same Metamagic Feat on a spell were allowed, would be utterly and completely useless.

The only thing that helps your argument is this:

3) Some already released errata and clarifications have indeed made no sense whatsoever and have clashed with the rules in and of themselves.

So on that note, it is indeed possible that they did soething this stupid. The chances are equally good, however, that they did not.

 

[Ristamar]

Use some common sense, people!

Unfortunately, this is a D&D rules discussion, so 'common sense' is often inapplicable. Your pleas are valiant, though ultimately futile.

 

[mikebr99]

Where does it say you can, in the books or the SRD? Or the errata for that matter?

Use some common sense, people!

Ok... it says that you can put multiple meta feats on a spell.. it doesn't say that you can't put the same one on more then once... so common sense leads me to believe that you CAN put the SAME meta feat on more then once.

Think about it:

1) The books and the SRD don't have ANY mention of allowing stacking the same Metamagic Feat.

It also says nothing about NOT allowing this...

2) The ELH introduced feats that, if stacking the same Metamagic Feat on a spell were allowed, would be utterly and completely useless.

The only thing that helps your argument is this:

3) Some already released errata and clarifications have indeed made no sense whatsoever and have clashed with the rules in and of themselves.

So on that note, it is indeed possible that they did soething this stupid. The chances are equally good, however, that they did not.

I think it's a little more weighted in my favour...

 

[Anubis]

If it doesn't say you CAN do it, then common sense should tell you you CAN'T BECAUSE it would make no sense if you could.

It doesn't say either way, but BECAUSE there is a HUGE precedent against stacking the same Metamagic Feat, then the rules are obviously meant to not allow such stacking.

Or do you think a weak Feat outshining an EPIC Feat isn't a good enough precedent to finally answer the question that isn't stated ANYWHERE in the book or SRD?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

1) The books and the SRD don't have ANY mention of allowing stacking the same Metamagic Feat.

Not specifically, but, in general, it says you can stack multiple metamagic feats. There aren't any real problems with applying the same one multiple times if one is willing to use the higher spell slots. In addition, the game designers have been asked to clarify the issue and they said it was fine to stack the same metamagic feat. That's what we do when something is ambiguous (doesn't say either way), go ask the author(s).

2) The ELH introduced feats that, if stacking the same Metamagic Feat on a spell were allowed, would be utterly and completely useless.

There is an example of this in the core rules as well. Nothing wrong here. Applying Quicken Spell twice is useless too, right? There are other supplements that have metamagic feats that do not make much sense to stack (don't recall one off the top of my head).

 

[Anubis]

2) The ELH introduced feats that, if stacking the same Metamagic Feat on a spell were allowed, would be utterly and completely useless.

There is an example of this in the core rules as well. Nothing wrong here. Applying Quicken Spell twice is useless too, right? There are other supplements that have metamagic feats that do not make much sense to stack (don't recall one off the top of my head).

You misunderstood me. What that means is that the ELH introduced Enhance Spell, and if stacking the same Metamagic Feat is allowed, namely Empwoer Spell, then Enhance Spell has no use whatsoever under ANY conceivable circumstance.

That fact alone means that either I'm right or the authors don't know what the heck they're doing. One or the other, no room for a middle point on that.

 

[drowdude]

Now I will also clear up any and all debate as to whether normal spells are able to be stacked by the rules or not.

YOU CAN'T STACK NORMAL METAMAGIC FEATS UNLESS THE FEAT SAYS YOU CAN.

Thanks for shouti...er... sharing your *opinion* on the matter. But it is far from the only interpretation of the rules, and far from what I would call the correct interpretation.

Oh, but we have an FAQ that says you can stack Metamagic Feats? I'm sorry, but that FAQ is unofficial and thus invalid. The FAQ is not part of the rules in any way, and it is not errata which is obviously released seperate from the FAQ.

Once again, theres an excellent expression of your opinion. I personally feel that the FAQ is perfectly valid to use in a rules discussion.

It's there to help us understand the rules more clearly. It is bogus to expect others to completely disregard what it so clearly states in regards to stacking metamagic feats simply to lend strength to your opinion on the matter.

The fact that Enhance Spell would be completely useless if you could stack Empower Spell is absolute proof that the OFFICIAL ruling on Metamagic Feats is that they are not stackable.

I do not agree with this point at all. I think that Enhance spell differs from other metamagic feats in that it alters the base effect of the spell. Thus instead of applying a metamagic effect to 10d6, you apply it to 20d6 or whathaveyou.

There is nothing anywhere saying that stacking is an option, except for that silly FAQ that is just thrown together with quick answers. The FAQ means absolutely nothing, so don't refer to it anymore.

Why? Because you say so? What are you gonna do if I *do* continue to refer to it and say "You are wrong" ?

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

If it doesn't say you CAN do it, then common sense should tell you you CAN'T BECAUSE it would make no sense if you could.

Exactly!!! Just because the ride-by-attack feat DOESN'T say that you can ride your mount backwards while making an attack, doesn't mean you CAN. Like you said it comes down to common sense.

Most people reading the rules for the first time on applying multiple metas on spells would tend to believe that the authors are talking about applying different metas to the same spell. Afterall, all the examples are demonstrating different metas, not the same one over and over.

Unfortunately, in our extended group, we have 3 mid to high level wizards who have chosen their feats (or more precisely, have not needed to choose certain feats) based solely on the ablility to stack Empower Spell on itself. Too many people now depend on the stackablilty of Empower because their whole feat selecton strategy for the last 15 or so levels is based on that ability.

Btw, stacking empower never bothered me untill the ELH came out. I said "ohh cool, maybe there will be a some new damage increasing metamagic feats in there that can be useful." Ya right. I guess if you want a little "flavor" and want to take the "Epic" Enhance Spell or "Epic" Intensify Spell feats, knock yourself out, but the "stacking" non-epic Empower Spell does AT LEAST the same, if not better.

When in doubt: Empower!!!!

 

[James McMurray]

Even with stacking allowable on empower, Enhance is not a useless feat. The ability to add other effects to the spell, such as an Enhanced and Empowered spell which deals 30d6 for +6 levels (the cap becomes 20, times 1.5 = 30). Compare that to +6 levels worth of empower, and you have a feat that allows a 25d6 fireball (base 10d6 x 2.5). Seems worthwhile for me. In fact, given that example, my sorcerer may very well take enhance spell. Of course, he's planning on a couple applications of Improved Metamagic, which will make it even more useful.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Even with stacking allowable on empower, Enhance is not a useless feat. The ability to add other effects to the spell, such as an Enhanced and Empowered spell which deals 30d6 for +6 levels (the cap becomes 20, times 1.5 = 30). Compare that to +6 levels worth of empower, and you have a feat that allows a 25d6 fireball (base 10d6 x 2.5). Seems worthwhile for me.

1. Remember, metamagic works only ON THE BASE SPELL, that means your example should read like this:
---fireball 10d6
---enhanced +10d6
---empower (from base spell) +5d6
that equals 25d6, the same as the triple stacked Empower (25d6)
--->25d6 vs 25d6

Empower ties


2. Try that on chain lightning:
---chain lightning 20d6
---enhanced +10d6
---empower +10d6
that equals 40d6 (and you MUST be 30th level)
triple stacked empower 20d6 x 2.5 = 50d6 (and I can be LESS than 30th level)
--->40d6 vs 50d6

Empower wins

In fact, given that example, my sorcerer may very well take enhance spell. Of course, he's planning on a couple applications of Improved Metamagic, which will make it even more useful.

3. Don't EVEN get me started on Empower with a single application of Improved Metamagic.... Empower at +1/level OwNs all.