Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[Shard O'Glase]

The same problem exists with the epic Intensify Spell feat, (read the first post).





So have I, no imbalance here, but none of our wizards (once they have gotten educated about Empower), have bothered to take ANY of the other metamagic damage increasing feats, theres simply no need.

That's true in my games as well, but even before the stack same feat rules were out(or we were aware of them) no one took anything but empower, maximize just sucked in their minds 3 levels for slightly better than empower not likely, twin spell etc 4 spell levels geez what the heck can you do with that even a twin fireball is 7th level, a empowered cone fo cold would do more damage. So this just solidified what they already knew empower rocked the rest sucked.

 

[Crothian]

LOL
if I'm gathering this seed thing right from the posts wouldn't lower water work as a seed.


Though not to start the epic spell debate again but at best I'd put a part a sea spell as a 9th level spell, cool and all but not epic enough to qualify for a 10th level spell.

Have you seen how big the red sea is? I think to part that sucker would take an epic spell.

Animate is the seed. However, I can't find any info on average depth of average length of the Red Sea to figure out how large an area is needed.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

First of all, I must point out that all of the calculations on Empowered spells are incorrect. A 10d6 fire ball double empowered does not equal an enhanced fire ball, as the damage is not in dice, but the final result is multiplied 1.5. This may seem nit-picky, but it is really more important with spells such as magic missile, various orb spells, chain lightning, ect. An otherwise average roll by multiple missile could end up on the bad side of the rounding down rule. Especially if each missile/orb is only rolling one dice each. You could enhance it five times, and if you roll a 1, you get a 1, as the base damage would be multiplied 1.5 for each time enhanced was applied. (By strict interpretation of the feat, this is the way to calculate it.)


Min/Mid/Max

10d6 = 10/30/60
10d6 x 1.5 = 15/~45/90
20d6 = 20/60/120

Like I said ,I know it's nit-picky.

Secondly, it is SOOOOO obvious by the ELH MM feats that were added that spellcasters are supposed to take the enhanced meta magic feat. Just take it three times, and then observe...

Fire ball

10d6
10d6 x 1.5 (empowered)
60 (maximized)
20d6 (enhanced)

SEE!!! A no brainer, must have combo. Since all of the above are now only at +1 spell slots, it is obvious that WotC meant for all spellcasters to take Enhanced MM, so as to make their new epic feats worth while. Duh!

* removes tounge from cheek*

Seriously, look at this, at +2 spell levels..

fire ball

10d6
10d6 x 1.5 twice, double enhanced.
60 + 10d6 x .5 (maximized and enhanced.)
30d6 (double enhanced)

If you take it six times, take a fresh look at intensify. Granted it would be a feat heavy investment, but at +1 spell level, your simple fire ball does 120, period. With enhance, at a +2 spell level, it does 240, period. Enhance spell, which is worthless, now allows you to use maximize and intensify, which are also worthless, to a whole new degree. Even if you don't want to spend that many feats on improving your damage, the above two examples are reasonably cost effective, and make empower the proverbial red headed step child.

Just like taking weapon focus in one weapon and improved crit in a different one is not a waste, just ineffective. Put them both on one weapon, and they become dangerous COMBINED, and they open the door to other feats on their trees.

 

[Marshall]

That fact alone means that either I'm right or the authors don't know what the heck they're doing. One or the other, no room for a middle point on that.

There is one other option, the ELH authors[and playtesters] werent in the loop on the stacking ruling. Since the authors dont know about the errant 'clarification' and none of the testers tested it that way, you get a worthless feat.

 

[Johno]

snip...

Min/Mid/Max

10d6 = 10/30/60
10d6 x 1.5 = 15/~45/90
20d6 = 20/60/120

Incorrect. Average Damage is 35, as the average roll of a d6 is 3,5, not 3. ((1+2+3+4+5+6)/6=3,5)

Like I said ,I know it's nit-picky.

What was that you said? I can't hear you very well... Must be some static on my internet

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

SIGH...

First of all, I must point out that all of the calculations on Empowered spells are incorrect. A 10d6 fire ball double empowered does not equal an enhanced fire ball, as the damage is not in dice, but the final result is multiplied 1.5.

Ok Battlehammer, for you

Example 1:---------------------------------------------
ENHANCING fireball
---fireball 10d6 (35 points)
---enhanced +10d6 (35 points)
total enhanced = (35 + 35 = 70 points)

DOUBLE EMPOWERING fireball
---fireball 10d6 (35 points)
---1st empower (35 x 1.5 = 17.5)
---2nd empower (35 x 1.5 = 17.5)
total double empowered (35 +17.5 +17.5 = 70 points)

70 = 70
empower = enhanced
-------------------------------------------------------------

Example 2:
ENHANCING horrid wilting
---horrid wilting 25d8 (112.5 points)
---enhanced +10d8 (45 points)
total enhanced = (112.5 + 45 = 157.5 points)

DOUBLE EMPOWERING horrid wilting
---horrid wilting 25d8 (112.5 points)
---1st empower (112.5 x 1.5 = 56.25)
---2nd empower (112.5 x 1.5 = 56.25)
total double empowered (112.5 + 56.25 + 56.25 = 225 points)

225 > 157.5
empower WINS
-------------------------------------------------------------

battlehammer, your homework is to try the same for (enhanced vs double empowered):
1. cone of cold (15d6)
2. chain lightning (20d6)
you will find Empower wins, Empower always wins in the end

 

[Anubis]

The same problem exists with the epic Intensify Spell feat, (read the first post).





So have I, no imbalance here, but none of our wizards (once they have gotten educated about Empower), have bothered to take ANY of the other metamagic damage increasing feats, theres simply no need.

No imbalance? Haven't you read the book? It states, and I'm paraphrasing here: "If something in the game is so good that everyone wants it and there is no reason to not take it or to take anything else, then something's wrong, and it's unbalanced."

So that just helps my case. The fact that most other Metamagci Feats are useless when yo allow Empower to stack further proves that it's not to be allowed. This isn't a balance issue as much as it is a usefulness issue.

Stacking Empower Spell, especially once you have Imporved Metamagic, leave all other Metamagic feats in the dust.

If that isn't proof, I dunno what is. You guys can continue making the same mistakes over and over, but I'm gonna admit that stacking was a simple mistake and remove it from the game.

Then I'm gonna ask the Sage to clarify.

 

[Anubis]

First of all, I must point out that all of the calculations on Empowered spells are incorrect. A 10d6 fire ball double empowered does not equal an enhanced fire ball, as the damage is not in dice, but the final result is multiplied 1.5. This may seem nit-picky, but it is really more important with spells such as magic missile, various orb spells, chain lightning, ect. An otherwise average roll by multiple missile could end up on the bad side of the rounding down rule. Especially if each missile/orb is only rolling one dice each. You could enhance it five times, and if you roll a 1, you get a 1, as the base damage would be multiplied 1.5 for each time enhanced was applied. (By strict interpretation of the feat, this is the way to calculate it.)


Min/Mid/Max

10d6 = 10/30/60
10d6 x 1.5 = 15/~45/90
20d6 = 20/60/120

Like I said ,I know it's nit-picky.

Secondly, it is SOOOOO obvious by the ELH MM feats that were added that spellcasters are supposed to take the enhanced meta magic feat. Just take it three times, and then observe...

Fire ball

10d6
10d6 x 1.5 (empowered)
60 (maximized)
20d6 (enhanced)

SEE!!! A no brainer, must have combo. Since all of the above are now only at +1 spell slots, it is obvious that WotC meant for all spellcasters to take Enhanced MM, so as to make their new epic feats worth while. Duh!

* removes tounge from cheek*

Seriously, look at this, at +2 spell levels..

fire ball

10d6
10d6 x 1.5 twice, double enhanced.
60 + 10d6 x .5 (maximized and enhanced.)
30d6 (double enhanced)

If you take it six times, take a fresh look at intensify. Granted it would be a feat heavy investment, but at +1 spell level, your simple fire ball does 120, period. With enhance, at a +2 spell level, it does 240, period. Enhance spell, which is worthless, now allows you to use maximize and intensify, which are also worthless, to a whole new degree. Even if you don't want to spend that many feats on improving your damage, the above two examples are reasonably cost effective, and make empower the proverbial red headed step child.

Just like taking weapon focus in one weapon and improved crit in a different one is not a waste, just ineffective. Put them both on one weapon, and they become dangerous COMBINED, and they open the door to other feats on their trees.

You're overlooking the fact that Enhance Spell is an EPIC feat.

An Epic feat BY ITSELF should ALWAYS be more powerful than a basic feat. Enhance Spell, however, doesn't becoe more powerful than Empower Spell until you're taken THREE OTHER FEATS, Improved Metamagic thrice.

Explain THAT, hmmm?

 

[Marshall]

You're overlooking the fact that Enhance Spell is an EPIC feat.

An Epic feat BY ITSELF should ALWAYS be more powerful than a basic feat. Enhance Spell, however, doesn't becoe more powerful than Empower Spell until you're taken THREE OTHER FEATS, Improved Metamagic thrice.

Explain THAT, hmmm?

Even after you ImproveMeta Enhance, Empower still takes it. You only have to take Empower once, you have to take Enhance over and over and over...

Post that reply from the Sage

 

[Anubis]

Even after you ImproveMeta Enhance, Empower still takes it. You only have to take Empower once, you have to take Enhance over and over and over...

Post that reply from the Sage

That's true! Empower does eventually overtake it unless you take Enhance over and over! That's a lot of feats to get the Epic feat to bypass Empower Spell!

As soon as I hear from Sage (or Monte, I'm trying to get something out of him as well), I will certainly post it here. Stay tuned.