Intensify Spell is an Epic WASTE!!!!

[HEL Pit Fiend]

I've shown three cases where it is. Typing in all caps does not make an incorrect post any more logical.

You did not understand, the costs in FEAT SLOTS is very steep, therefore not worth it.

It doesn't have to be written anywhere. It quite obviously modifies the base spell. It says it adds 10 (or 5) to the spell's damage cap. It doesn't say it adds 10 (or 5) dice of damage.

Again, seems like an assumption, right or wrong, I do not know. Read the Maximize Spell feat, to me, it also, quite obviously, modifies the base spell. Isn't it written somewhere, (PHB, FAQ, DMG) that if you combine any metamagic feats they only affect the base spell. If so, AND if Enhance Spell is an exception, it should have been written so.

 

[James McMurray]

It does affect the base spell. By increasing its cap.

Maximize spell makes the base part of the spell do maximum damage.

Empower spell causes the base spell effect to be multiplied by 1.5.

Enhance spell increases the base spell's cap by 5 or 10 dice. However, the nature of that effect allows it to spill over onto other feats. at least, that's how I read it. If it doesn't work that way then it loses quite a bit of its worth.

 

[Crothian]

I have to say I think it does change the base spell. Usually I rule in the more restrictive way, but rereading this all and the books it sounds like that is the way to go.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

It does affect the base spell. By increasing its cap.

Maximize spell makes the base part of the spell do maximum damage.

Empower spell causes the base spell effect to be multiplied by 1.5.

Enhance spell increases the base spell's cap by 5 or 10 dice. However, the nature of that effect allows it to spill over onto other feats. at least, that's how I read it. If it doesn't work that way then it loses quite a bit of its worth.

We know Empower, Maximize, Twin, Chain, etc etc. affects only the base part of the spell because it is written somewhere (not in the feat descriptions itself) that ALL metamagic feats affect only the base spell. Re-read the Empower Spell feat, no where in the description does it say "...affects base spell...".

As a matter of fact, just by reading Empower, you can't determine that if you use 2 empowers stacked, if the damage will be x2 or x2.25 (1.5 x 1.5). Stacking metamagic is handled separately, not in the feat description itself.

Again you cannot determine if any metamagic feat affects the base spell by only reading the feat description itself, unless it specifically says so, because it has been handled elsewhere. Yet, that is what you are doing by reading into the Enhanced Spell feat.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

SIGH...

battlehammer, your homework is to try the same for (enhanced vs double empowered):
1. cone of cold (15d6)
2. chain lightning (20d6)
you will find Empower wins, Empower always wins in the end

YOUR homework is to re-read my post.

I said the same thing as James McMurray. Granted he said it better, but the point was that if you get all feats down to +1 spell slots, empower becomes LESS powerful, enhance and intensify become more powerful. Your equations had only one feat for the feats you do not like, yet used your favorite feat twice. Of course you will get better results that way. Not to mention that you forgot to round down, so empower still loses. (17.5 = 17)

As to the need to take multiple feats being exspensive, I mentioned that, too. Whether or not you feel it is worth it is your opinion. I, too, would take the extra spell slots over the decreased MM cost, but only because it is in keeping with MY wizard. If he were more of a combatant, the choice would be different. You might have a few more spells, say two for each time you take the feat, factoring INT mod.. However, ALL of my spells will be maxed, intensified, twined, ect., giving me predictability of results, which is a major advantage in deciding ones tactics.

As to an epic feat needing to be more powerful on its own, why? Perhaps it was poor planning, perhaps it was there to give those willing to make the investment a big advantage over those who think it is useless. The greatest power comes not from a single feat or class, but from a well thought out combination. Damn, I'm repeating myself again.

And for what it's worth, I don't remember you sighing at me when I have agreed with you in past threads. You are't impressing me by doing it now.

 

[reiella]

If it helps any, look at the Mind's Eye article with the Overpower feat.

It explicitly lists combinations and stacking of the same feat (without taking multiple times) in its tables. Notably of Overpower and Empower (or whatever it was called).

 

[drowdude]

Working off of Fireball (av. dmg 35) as the base spell, and a max of 9th level spell slots...

Also assuming Enhance Spell modifies the *base* effect of the spell (which I think it does anways)...

--------------------------------------

* Empower x3 = Average Damage 87.5 (range = 25-150)

* Maximized + Empowered = Average Damage 77.5 (range = 65-90)

---------------------------------------

* Enhanced + Empowered = Average Damage 105 (range = 30-180)

---------------------------------------

Now consider it after taking Improved Metamagic once....

* Empower x6 = Average Damage 140 (range = 40-240)

* Empower x4 + Maximize = Average Damage 130 (range = 80-180)

* Enhanced + Empowered x3 = Average Damage 175 (range = 50-300)

* Enhanced + Maximized + Empowered = Average Damage 155 (range = 130-180)

----------------------------------------

Empower does seem at first glance much better than Maximize. But it all depends on how reliable you like your spells to be. Maximize drives the base damage up considerably in each case, which makes it *very* reliable versus Empower which is only better if you actually roll well on the damage dice.

In *ALL* cases where it was used, Enhance spell drives up the base/average/max damage. Thus it does it's job very well IMO.


Now back to the inital point of this thread, regarding Intensify Spell....

Yeah, basically, it's a waste. Now, my contention is that the problem lies with this "epic" feat rather than stacking up Empower. IMO, it's cost should be lowered to +5 levels or so.

 

[Petrosian]

Someone said...
"First of all, I must point out that all of the calculations on Empowered spells are incorrect. A 10d6 fire ball double empowered does not equal an enhanced fire ball, as the damage is not in dice, but the final result is multiplied 1.5. This may seem nit-picky, but it is really more important with spells such as magic missile, various orb spells, chain lightning, ect. An otherwise average roll by multiple missile could end up on the bad side of the rounding down rule. Especially if each missile/orb is only rolling one dice each. You could enhance it five times, and if you roll a 1, you get a 1, as the base damage would be multiplied 1.5 for each time enhanced was applied. (By strict interpretation of the feat, this is the way to calculate it.)"

Actually if you pay attention to the rules for multiple multiples, it says (clearly iirc) that when applying multiple multiples you add them So two empowers would be 1+.5+.5 = 2x the roll, not as you suggest 1+5 x each rounding for each case. The discussion i recall it being cited in was about double empower bull strength and whether it could reach 10 or 9.

Someone else said...
"yeah because empower is better than maximize that means it's unbalanced."

Remember Empower ONE LEVEL is often as good as maximize even tho it is one level down. An empowered magic missile does 3, 4, 6, 7 on its d4+1 modified roll, producing an average of 5 per missile, the exact same as maximize. The empower weighs in 1 level lower.

If there is ANy question as to whether you can or cannot by the rules stack empowers we have the FAQ

" You can apply most metamagic feats more than once.
Just stack up the costs, and remember to apply the
additional effects to the basic spell. For example, if you
extend a spell twice, you get 3 times the duration, not 4
times the duration. (Each extension adds 100% of the
spell’s base duration.)
There are a few metamagic feats that are constructed so
as to make stacking worthless or pointless. You cannot,
for example, get more than maximum damage out of a
spell by maximizing the spell more than once. (If you
want to send the spell’s damage through the roof, use
Empower Spell multiple times.) Heighten Spell already
allows you set the spell’s effective level anywhere you
want (and can manage), so there’s no point in applying
the feat more than once.
"

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Someone said...
"First of all, I must point out that all of the calculations on Empowered spells are incorrect. A 10d6 fire ball double empowered does not equal an enhanced fire ball, as the damage is not in dice, but the final result is multiplied 1.5. This may seem nit-picky, but it is really more important with spells such as magic missile, various orb spells, chain lightning, ect. An otherwise average roll by multiple missile could end up on the bad side of the rounding down rule. Especially if each missile/orb is only rolling one dice each. You could enhance it five times, and if you roll a 1, you get a 1, as the base damage would be multiplied 1.5 for each time enhanced was applied. (By strict interpretation of the feat, this is the way to calculate it.)"

Actually if you pay attention to the rules for multiple multiples, it says (clearly iirc) that when applying multiple multiples you add them So two empowers would be 1+.5+.5 = 2x the roll, not as you suggest 1+5 x each rounding for each case. The discussion i recall it being cited in was about double empower bull strength and whether it could reach 10 or 9.

Thats mine.

Actually, the entire reason this thread has dragged on for so long is because there are no rules for stacking the same MM feat. My understanding, both from the description of MM feats in the PHB, the Empower feat description, AND the FaQ, is that all feats modify the BASE spell. You even quoted that Extend used twice results in 3 times the duration, not 4. So an Empowered spell that does 15 points of damage would do an additional 7 points for each time it is Empowered, as the multiplier affects the base spell. "You can apply most metamagic feats more than once.
Just stack up the costs, and remember to apply the
additional effects to the basic spell. For example, if you
extend a spell twice, you get 3 times the duration, not 4
times the duration. (Each extension adds 100% of the
spell’s base duration.)"


I'm not sure what (iirc) means, but if there is another source your quoting, I'd love to get a reference.

Besides, we aren't supposed to qoute the FaQ, it's irrelevant.

 

[mikebr99]

From the SRD:

MULTIPLYING
Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply
the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply, however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra
multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (x2) and a double (x2) applied to the same number
results in a triple (x3, because 2 + 1 = 3).