D&D 5E Invisible, hidden and within 5 feet of an enemy making a ranged attack

I don't agree with this, but I think it does show a difference because I wouldn't have thought to put rules and fiction in that kind of power dynamic. For me, the purpose of rules in an RPG is as a means for the group to establish and agree on fiction that's generated while playing. In Forge jargon, this is called the Lumpley Principle. My preference is for rules and fiction to be strongly identified such that when a rule calls for a specific established fictional situation to have a certain mechanical resolution, as in the example of play described in the OP, that rule is honored according to the group's social contract, resulting in the establishment of new, agreed on fiction.

It was a bit overexaggerated, I admit.
But it did illustrate the difference well enough, so I got a nice reply from you.

A little bit less exaggerated, I would say, your approach is: fiction follows rules (or they go hand in hand), my approach is: rules serve the fiction.

I like to believe that both approaches are valid and as you say, the social contract should be established beforehand, or after a conflict in such a situation arises.

Thanks for giving me insight into your style of play.
 

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Would you perhaps ask the player for a Dex(Stealth) roll, depending on the approach of the invisible, hidden PC?
Without a more concrete example it would be hard to give a definitive answer, but I'm inclined to say no. Given that it has been established that the PC is hidden, they have presumably already succeeded in a Stealth/Perception contest against the attacker and the result of their successful check remains in effect until they are discovered or stop hiding.
 

The "leap" you describe is caused by the Ranged Attacks in Close Combat rule employing a fortune-in-the-middle technique. As the rule states, all that needs to be established before rolling the dice is that a creature has the described positioning relative to a ranged attacker. The hostile attitude of the creature is a meaningful part of that positioning because it means the creature will take risks, if necessary, to oppose the attacker's actions. With that intent in mind, the attack is rolled with disadvantage, and the result informs any fiction that is then created about what the creature did to make the attack more difficult. By creating that fiction first, before mechanical resolution, you're adding an additional rider (e.g. that the creature must also distract the attacker) that is not present in the rule itself.
This is an inference on your part, same as mine.

Let me try to lay out both our arguments in a premise/conclusion format.

Hriston Premise 1: The rules state that a hostile creature within 5' imposes disadvantage on ranged attacks.
Hriston Premise 2: There is no exception stated for Hidden foes.
Hriston Conclusion 1: A ranged attacker with a hidden foe within 5' suffers disadvantage.
Hriston Corollary 1: The designers intended for Hidden foes to interfere with shots in the exact same way as obvious threats.
Hirston Corollary 2: The designers intended this to be an example of Fortune-in-the-middle design, where the rule comes before the fiction, and we create fiction to match it.

Mannahnin Premise 1: The rules state that a hostile creature within 5' imposes disadvantage on ranged attacks.
Mannahnin Premise 2: This appears intended to represent the fiction that with an immediate threat in melee reach, a ranged attacker will be distracted defending themselves and unable to optimally aim and fire their ranged weapon.
Mannahnin Premise 3: If a Hidden creature makes its presence known/draws attention to itself, it loses the Hidden status.
Mannahnin Premise 4: Actively touching and interfering with the body or equipment of an enemy is consistently something which has to be declared as an action, and involves some sort of roll, in D&D.
Mannahnin Premise 5: Nearly all mechanics in D&D employ Fortune at the End; we establish the fiction, and the rules follow from and implement that.
Mannahnin Premise 6: 5E is deliberately written with simpler, less exhaustive language than the two prior WotC editions, intending to leverage player "common sense" to adjudicate corner cases and unusual situations.
Mannahnin Conclusion 1: While the rule for nearby hostile creatures imposing Disadvantage on ranged attacks states no exception for Hidden creatures, this situation does not appear to match the fictive justification for the penalty that I have shared understanding of with my various gaming groups since playing this edition. There is a conflict here between rules and fiction.
Mannahnin Corollary 1: The lack of an exception to the ranged attack rules for Hidden foes may be an oversight, or an example of WotC trying to keep the rule simple and not expecting this situation. The correct ruling is ambiguous.


The invisibility spell has as a theme through the editions of "if you mess with someone else you lose the invisibility". There have been many ways to frame and phrase this. This edition goes with the simple "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Since they are interacting with the archer, however gently pushing the bow, they are adversely affecting another individual. This is enough to disrupt the spell to me.
For the record, Invisibility has consistently, through the various editions since 1974, had "attacking or casting a (n offensive) spell" as the condition which ends it. Not merely interfering with or touching someone. I don't think there's real grounds in the rules for saying that doing so would end Invisibility. It's whether it would end the Hidden condition that's at issue.
 
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With you so far, but curious as to how it relates to the question I asked. The above part is not in debate, AFAICT.
That was a combination of thinking out loud and stating first principles for a coherent argument.

You can choose that if you like, but I don't see how "gently pushing the bow" (which is still only one of many possibilities) is anything more than (similar to) an object interaction, which clearly does not negate invisibility, or you wouldn't be able to pick stuff up.
I consider it more than simple object interaction because the character is actively interfering with an opponent.
I don't consider it in the same vein as sneaking into an occupied room, picking up an object and have it fade, and then sneaking out of the room. I've had to make some specific rulings in the past of what constitutes "an attack".

Attack - Chance to harm
Grapple - Chance to restrain
Interference - Chance to distract, hurling a bucket of water, "pushing on a bow"
Shenanigans - Chance to distract, lesser, breathing on an ear, strange sounds behind
Incidental - Intense glowering

Anything "Interference" and higher would cause a loss of invisibility.

That said... Hmm...

In the past, I've had to declare that "interference" or more was an "attack" to prevent what I considered unreasonable use of invisibility. There is an ill defined diagetic cause for the disruption of invisibility. Let's see... Grapple and Shoving A Creature are explicitly considered "attacks" in 5e. I have let a high level thief who was invisible unbuckle the sword belt of an unaware guard and keep their invisibility; using their extreme skill to perform an action upon another without collapsing the spell.

I just don't see the "gentle pushing of the bow" to be worth the full penalty, especially not when the base assumption is that the archer is trying to avoid getting killed by a nearby opponent and has a harder shot thereby. I also assume that the archer isn't wholly motionless. However, I could be persuaded that an invisible character who was standing next to an archer, and wished to actively interfere but not threaten an "attack", thus keeping their invisibility, could do some shenanigans and inflict a -2 penalty on the shot. The archer would know something was up, and the character would risk an attack from then at disadvantage from the invisibility. Passively standing there would be insufficient for any form of penalty.
 

"gentle pushing of the bow".
Don't forget that "gentle pushing of the bow" was only one spit-balled excuse for the interference, out of anything one can imagine. If you don't like that one, you can pick another. Deflect the arrow (might be hard for the archer to tell exactly what happened, beyond the arrow not going where they intended). I mean, maybe they figure it out, but it doesn't have to be automatically assumed that they do.
 

Don't forget that "gentle pushing of the bow" was only one spit-balled excuse for the interference, out of anything one can imagine. If you don't like that one, you can pick another. Deflect the arrow (might be hard for the archer to tell exactly what happened, beyond the arrow not going where they intended). I mean, maybe they figure it out, but it doesn't have to be automatically assumed that they do.
I understand. However, my point is that if you want the benefits of people not knowing where you are you can't meaningfully interfere with someone else.
 

I understand. However, my point is that if you want the benefits of people not knowing where you are you can't meaningfully interfere with someone else.
It would definitely make it more difficult!

Of course, people IRL (and in D&D) do difficult, and even unbelievably amazing things, all the time.
 

Here's an alternate way to think about the rules in question here.

Tom and Jerry are having an archery contest. Three shots and highest score wins. Tom has no idea who Jerry is. Jerry knows that Tom killed his master and burned down his dojo. Jerry is hostile to Tom.

Tom and Jerry line up next to each other and turn to shoot at their targets.

Do you impose disadvantage on Toms shot because Jerry is within 5' and hostile to Tom?
 

Here's an alternate way to think about the rules in question here.

Tom and Jerry are having an archery contest. Three shots and highest score wins. Tom has no idea who Jerry is. Jerry knows that Tom killed his master and burned down his dojo. Jerry is hostile to Tom.

Tom and Jerry line up next to each other and turn to shoot at their targets.

Do you impose disadvantage on Toms shot because Jerry is within 5' and hostile to Tom?
LOL. "But it's RAW!"

And Jerry keeps "tipping Tom's bow", but Tom can't notice because Jerry doesn't have to "do anything" to make it happen. Just be there, and be hostile!

That's a good one, all right.
 

The invisibility spell has as a theme through the editions of "if you mess with someone else you lose the invisibility". There have been many ways to frame and phrase this. This edition goes with the simple "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Since they are interacting with the archer, however gently pushing the bow, they are adversely affecting another individual. This is enough to disrupt the spell to me.
I would argue that you can impose disadvantage and still remain invisible. All the things you can do while invisible without breaking it, such as pick pockets and shout insults would back this up. A second point is that you disrupt invisibility on your turn by attacking or casting and not on other's turns.

Back to an upthread point, I think you can remain hidden and still impose disadvantage. I would give a Perception check to find you, and even grant disadvantage on this check if you are both hidden and invisible, but still give a check. The part about being hostile warrants that the attacker would know something is going on.
 

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