Alright I picked up playing D&D about a year ago, then our DM QQed and rage quick so we quit playing and are just now picking it back up again with another DM, my question comes from total concealment or invisibility, it says the monster can't see you, therefore they cannot attack you, but they can attack that square, so, when it gets down to the battle grid and actually implementing, it how does it all work? I'm playing a warlock and eyebite makes you invisible to that target, so when it hits, Target A no longer has line of sight to me, my biggest thing is, my coin which represents my character is still on the grid, how can the DM, who can still very much see where i am, make a non-biased opinion about which square to attack.....i thought about just removing the coin from the grid completely , but on bigger battlefeilds that can get confusing when you don't remember where your standing exactly, not to mention other creatures can still see you, i've been looking through the handbooks for this information but i can't seem to find it... it's not only eyebite which makes you invisible to one creature, but abilities and effects that can give you total concealment or invisiblity to all mobs.... any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks a bunch
Invisible
- Thread starter Krymzen
- Start date
UngeheuerLich
Legend
You must move and make a stealth chack afterwards to be not noticed, otherwise you are noisy and you leave trails on the ground etc.
You are however invisible and at -5 to hit from melee and ranged attacks.
You are however invisible and at -5 to hit from melee and ranged attacks.
thanks for the quick reply but that still doesn't solve the problem of the DM knowing where i am, i mean in all seriousness you he could always move the target adjacent to my square and attack my square.....which shouldn't be how it is, if they aren't suppose to be able to see me
Wonderland666
First Post
he could to that yes, but nomaly he needs a reason to attack the square. Normaly the Monster can have some clues where you could be. As a DM i normaly role a Dice and say: For that monster you could be in Square A,B,C A=1,2 ; b=3,4 ; C=5,6 - IF the Player make a suprising move you are in Square D ..(okay then i skip the dice and say that guy attacks square B) . Same can be made with Area attacks.
Nytmare
David Jose
Most of it is (hopefully) relying on the fact that the DM isn't looking at the game as an outright competition that he's actively trying to win. Beyond that, invisibility isn't the earth shattering, mechanic-less ability it used to be.
First and foremost, while you're invisible, that doesn't flat out mean that you can't be found. Until you make a stealth roll, you're invisible, have total concealment (-5 to hit), and people know what square you're in.
Once you make a stealth roll, you can hide from people, but depending on what actions you take, or how far you move, people might still be able to figure out what square you're in. Moving more than 2 squares means that you have a -2 to your stealth check. If you run you have a -10.
Beyond that, you start to tread in possible jerk waters. There are people in the world who, even though a character can't find the invisible guy, they will insist that they're going to randomly attack the square where the player can clearly see the figure. They might argue that it makes perfect sense to fireball the otherwise empty corner of the room, or to strategically block the one in twenty paths that they saw you move the miniature towards. In the end things like this need to fall to DM fiat. Unfortunately if the jerk in question is the DM your best bet is to find a different DM.
At my table, when something turns invisible, you throw a clear glass bead on it. If it's a player, even if they sneak off, they stay on the board with the bead on them to remind me that monsters will need to work harder to try to find them. If it's a monster, I leave the chit with the glass bead in the last spot where any player was certain of it's location.
I can't speak for every DM in the world, but for me, it's not a question as to whether or not I can be unbiased. For me, the bias is stacked unflinchingly towards doing what (I hope) my players will be most entertained by.
First and foremost, while you're invisible, that doesn't flat out mean that you can't be found. Until you make a stealth roll, you're invisible, have total concealment (-5 to hit), and people know what square you're in.
Once you make a stealth roll, you can hide from people, but depending on what actions you take, or how far you move, people might still be able to figure out what square you're in. Moving more than 2 squares means that you have a -2 to your stealth check. If you run you have a -10.
Beyond that, you start to tread in possible jerk waters. There are people in the world who, even though a character can't find the invisible guy, they will insist that they're going to randomly attack the square where the player can clearly see the figure. They might argue that it makes perfect sense to fireball the otherwise empty corner of the room, or to strategically block the one in twenty paths that they saw you move the miniature towards. In the end things like this need to fall to DM fiat. Unfortunately if the jerk in question is the DM your best bet is to find a different DM.
At my table, when something turns invisible, you throw a clear glass bead on it. If it's a player, even if they sneak off, they stay on the board with the bead on them to remind me that monsters will need to work harder to try to find them. If it's a monster, I leave the chit with the glass bead in the last spot where any player was certain of it's location.
I can't speak for every DM in the world, but for me, it's not a question as to whether or not I can be unbiased. For me, the bias is stacked unflinchingly towards doing what (I hope) my players will be most entertained by.
Nytmare
David Jose
I know that you're just talking theoretically, but if this happens, get out. Canada's a big place, I'm sure there's another DM or two somewhere up there.
ah, well that clears that up a bit.... seems kinda.....stupid... i guess, to put a mechanic....like invisibility into a game when you don't have mechanics listed to guide the DM and the players how to act when this status appears.... i guess you deal with it however your group decides to do it....thanks for the tip, the glass bead thing is actually a really smart idea
Nytmare
David Jose
Well, you can't really have a "real" mechanic to cover something like this. In this kind of RPG, the type of conflict you're trying to avoid isn't supposed to happen.
You have a DM and they're supposed to be a near-omniscient, fair and impartial arbiter that the players can trust. Let's pretend that you don't. You can number the grid and keep a complex series of moves hidden from the DM. Now, you'll have to keep a list of where he moved as well to make sure that, after the fact, you weren't lying at any point and he actually found you. Maybe you could get a second impartial judge to check your list of moves to tell him if he can see you. That second DM should also check against the first DM's list of which squares have traps hidden on them... At that point, it's just turtles all the way down.
You have a DM and they're supposed to be a near-omniscient, fair and impartial arbiter that the players can trust. Let's pretend that you don't. You can number the grid and keep a complex series of moves hidden from the DM. Now, you'll have to keep a list of where he moved as well to make sure that, after the fact, you weren't lying at any point and he actually found you. Maybe you could get a second impartial judge to check your list of moves to tell him if he can see you. That second DM should also check against the first DM's list of which squares have traps hidden on them... At that point, it's just turtles all the way down.
jbear
First Post
In general I do it this way:
If the pc goes invisible and doesn't move the monsters attack the square they last saw the character in, suffering the -5 penalty (although they'd have to have a pretty viable reason to target that character over and above other easier, visible targets). If they go invisible and move then I do stealth vs passive perception to escape notice. If this is achieved the monsters have no idea where the invisible character is and target someone else. But again I'm having to imagine situations like an invisible cleric sustaining consecrated ground to warrant such determination to attack an invisible character. In 4e invisiblity doesn't tend to last very long anyway so it should earn the pc a brief moment of peace.
Your case may be different if you are a Fey Pact Warlock spamming Eyebite. Someone appearing, damaging and disappearing could probably annoy most creatures to go after their heckler. -5 is a pretty definitive penalty unless we are talking about a really low AC, which I guess a warlock could have. Eyebite is Fey Pact so hopefully your boon Teleport when your curse victim goes down should give you a free teleport move and stealth check to hide. Onto a roof or up a tree might not be a bad place to hide. (try and catch minions with it so you can drop them when you need to disappear). Anyway it is in you interest to train Stealth.
If the pc goes invisible and doesn't move the monsters attack the square they last saw the character in, suffering the -5 penalty (although they'd have to have a pretty viable reason to target that character over and above other easier, visible targets). If they go invisible and move then I do stealth vs passive perception to escape notice. If this is achieved the monsters have no idea where the invisible character is and target someone else. But again I'm having to imagine situations like an invisible cleric sustaining consecrated ground to warrant such determination to attack an invisible character. In 4e invisiblity doesn't tend to last very long anyway so it should earn the pc a brief moment of peace.
Your case may be different if you are a Fey Pact Warlock spamming Eyebite. Someone appearing, damaging and disappearing could probably annoy most creatures to go after their heckler. -5 is a pretty definitive penalty unless we are talking about a really low AC, which I guess a warlock could have. Eyebite is Fey Pact so hopefully your boon Teleport when your curse victim goes down should give you a free teleport move and stealth check to hide. Onto a roof or up a tree might not be a bad place to hide. (try and catch minions with it so you can drop them when you need to disappear). Anyway it is in you interest to train Stealth.
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