Invisible

[john112364]

As has been already stated, alot relies on an impartial DM. If there is a compelling reason for the NPCs to try to find you, then they might try to attack your square. But most likely they will probably find easier target. If creatures always attack a "random" square right where you're at, then you DM is being very unfair. (Dare I say a jerk?)

But most reasonable DMs will work with you. Talk to you DM about how he/she would handle it and see what he/she says. You could be stressing over nothing.

 

[john112364]

Oh and welcome to the forum!

 

[Fanaelialae]

When I DM, an invisible character who isn't stealthed is fair game (though, admittedly, not a very attractive target due to the -5 penalty).

No one knows the location of a hidden character, so he gets ignored unless perhaps the enemy has a large area attack and an axe to grind. Since moving more than 2 squares applies a -5 penalty to your Stealth check, it's not unreasonable (IMO) to target the origin square with a burst 2 attack (keep in mind that area attacks ignore the -5 penalty from total concealment).

Also, you may want to note that Eyebite will not allow you to become hidden under most circumstances. Eyebite only causes you to become invisible against one target. However, you need total concealment against all enemies in order to become hidden (any enemy who sees you can point out your square to his allies as a free action, which can be done even when it isn't his turn). This also applies when your Stealth check beats the passive Perception of some, but not all, enemies.

If you find that being attacked even while hidden is a problem, one possible solution would be to use several decoys to obscure your position. Take several tokens. Write your character's name on one and decoy on the rest. When you become hidden, place the tokens in legal spaces face down (so if you didn't take the -5 Stealth penalty, put them within 2 squares of your starting position). When the DM wants to attack you, he has to pick a token and attack it (unless it has your name on it, the attack automatically misses). Note that this will probably slow down game play somewhat, if you use steath regularly, so I'd only use it if you feel it's truly a necessity.

In 4e, it's generally quite difficult to make yourself effectively invulnerable for an extended period of time.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

An d it is a good thing. Invisibilty was always too good or too bad depending on the ground you are standing on.

Eyebite is useful even in a battle. It can be fun to hear someone scream: where is the guy? And a response: Are you blind, he is directly in front of you?

Could be an application of an insight check to get the hint in the heat of battle.

 

[Xphile]

Invisibility all depends on the RP skills of the players and DM, in both cases of when a monster is invisible and when a player is invisible.

As a DM, I would say that it depends on the type of monster you are fighting. If you have semi-intelligent creatures and one of them can still see you, then I would role-play that the monsters are calling out your location to the one who has been blinded. Thus he would make an attack (at -5) to the square where his allies called out from. A dumb creature may run away, as this is big scary magiks and find someone else to attack. If you were totally invisible to everyone, made a stealth check and slipped away... I'd probalby have the creature attack the square you were in as he still believes that you are there.

I trust my players. I know that if they wanted to cheat, they could easily do so. To that, I would not mind if my player removed his mini from the board, placed a marker where he originally was and then kept track of where he was moving.

In our last session, I was actually very impressed with the Palidan in the party. She was blinded by a creature and made herself find a wall and follow that wall towards where she last saw the creature, randomly attacking squares along the way. The player eventually was able to get help from her allies, but I think it proves that in a normal game, it really depends on how well your DM and players act out the experiance.

On the other hand, playing D&D on the computer would make this problem probably not exist, as the game become a "super DM" and makes sure that the DM and players all follow the rules.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Mmmmm, its still possible to hide when some enemies can see you. It is true that creatures can tell each other where things are as free actions, but a thoughtful DM is going to take a few things into consideration. For example other creatures may not understand the need to tell their companion where you are. They can see him fine and they may not even realize their buddy is blind. Creatures also don't cooperate perfectly or even always get along well at all.

More than that though there is no real mechanic involved that is specified in the rules. About all the rules really indicate is that the blind monster would probably make an active Perception check (at -10 for most monsters). Going simply by the directions of your allies MIGHT get you pointed at the right square to attack but that isn't a certainty. Also, while the rules don't really cover this, combat is fast, chaotic, and very noisy. At best these are less than ideal circumstances under which to be playing "pin the tail on the donkey".

Anyway, there is no really practical way to simulate blindness, invisibility, or even just ordinary hiding in a tabletop RPG. The idea of dummy markers is close but still pretty limited and awkward. It isn't addressed by the 4e rules because its really a table management issue and frankly what would the designer's say? I seriously doubt they have an answer. Wargamers would have long ago discovered any practical mechanism for 'fog of war' if it existed.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On the other hand, playing D&D on the computer would make this problem probably not exist, as the game become a "super DM" and makes sure that the DM and players all follow the rules.

Its possible, IF the tool supports that. Maptool for instance has no provision for a PC to be hidden from the DM. It would be problematic anyway since the DM is the only one that really knows the true state of the environment. There could be traps, etc. that the PC doesn't know about. In theory you could have a tool take care of that too, but it starts to get pretty complicated and said tool would have to be written with a lot of rules logic in it. Maybe some day we'll see this, but not likely any time soon.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I find it helpful to think of 4e blinded and invisibility as follows:

Invisibility is akin to the Predator's (from the movie) where there remains a vague humanoid shimmering that one can find (if you look carefully).

Blindness is similar to Left 4 Dead's boomer bile, where you can still see just enough to determine movement and crude forms (as though your vision was badly blurred, rather than outright blindness).

Handled thus, the fluff is a much better match for the mechanics, than if you take blindness and invisibility literally.

 

[Flipguarder]

Here's the problem, its not fluff, its the FREAKING WORD THEY USE TO DEFINE IT. Nobody reasonable can look at the predator while hes in stealth mode and go "ZOMG ITS INVISIBLE"

I feel Invisible is not what it should be in this edition. Invisibility should be a much higher level spell/ability, and should automatically grant everything "hidden" does.

 

[Nytmare]

I've actually been thinking about implementing that, or at least "when you turn invisible, you're automatically hidden" and then just have all the stealth stuff come into play if you try moving faster than 2.

If only because it would get rid of like 9 billion rolls when combat involves something that turns invisible.