(IR) 2nd ooc-thread of the 5th IR (open)

[Bugbear]

Bugbear: 378 IC
Suggested balance - None, just add armies.

I find it interesting that my power is the only one which is neither too weak or too strong. It's just right.

Some very interesting Ideas you have there Mr. Heard.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Anabstercorian: 53.1 IC
Suggested balance- Researcher trait (Increasing Tech costs 40 PP/level, Magical Research can be paid for with equivalent amounts of Elite armies.)
Plus I'd put a few hundred thousand more people in the Sea of Dust, along the edges or something, enough to suggest more armies and more IC.
Not sure if it would be enough, if not I'd add Infiltrator or more lands.

Well, there are a couple things you've missed.

First off, I already have the Infiltrator trait.

Second off, Serpenteye apparently is giving me a bigger population - the territory surrounding Greyhawk is some of the most densely populated land on Oerth, as he put it.

Barring that, I'd like the Trade Nexus trait, which would let me improve my IC slightly more cheaply.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Nac Mac Feegle: 293.3 IC
Suggested balance- More PLs than Guilt Puppy, and the Infiltrator trait.

I think I'm working just with the extra PLs and not the infiltrator trait.

 

[James Heard]

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[Bugbear]

I think it's because your total came closest to the mythical 400 IC average I was thinking about with reasonable explanations for how to balance it without much thought.

I certainly wouldn't press a trait onto anyone, and fully admit that I didn't check too closely (or know where to look) to find former traits - but just for acknowledgement's sake, what does everyone think about the new traits like Good and Spelljammer?

The Spelljammer trait I think is a must. If only to codify in the rules something which Airwhale/Zelda has whom noone else has.

The good trait, I don't know. That could be one heck of a penalty. And the "Reset Button" option is kind of weak. Just because your good does'nt mean you forget when someone invades you. Might be a good option for the IR home game though.

The reasearcher trait is a No-No. Serpenteye allready addressed this on a former thread. Not that I think it's a bad Idea in and of it's self, just with the kind of rules being used here it could prove unballancing.

 

[James Heard]

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[Guilt Puppy]

I think it's because your total came closest to the mythical 400 IC average I was thinking about with reasonable explanations for how to balance it without much thought.

First, thanks for compiling the info, and for taking the time to make suggestions. Just wanted to point out that I appreciate the time spent, even if I pretty much wholly disagree with you

For starters, I'm not sure where the 400 IC suggestion comes from -- is it based on looking at the rules, seeing how many ICs you'd need to make X amount of progress on Turn 1, or...? At the moment, the average is 350 (well, 350 point something), so unless there's some reason to shift the overall balance of power upward, I don't see why we don't balance around that.

Further, I don't know that ICs are even the best measuring stick of power in the game... They're the clearest, sure, and from a strictly mechanical end, they're all but the whole story. However, that doesn't fully account for the way the game will actually play out...

- First, it ignores any starting PLs, which can be very significant (Rikandur having the demi-god Iuz in play goes a long way to overcoming its IC deficit, as do Anabster's presumed 3 Epic PLs, though not quite so far in that case) -- until these get accounted for, it'll be hard to balance on anything but speculation.

- Second, it ignores the role of territory. Even though territory basically gets reduced to ICs mechanically, from a strategic perspective it is definitely significant: The Nyr Dyv Summit wouldn't be underway if it wasn't Territory can become a mitigating factor, as well: Those factions with large ICs who are stuck on isolated continents or planets are going to have some trouble getting much going (although that's a two-way street; it also protects them from having to deal with much danger, and ultimately might allow them to just lay back and develop while everyone else skirmishes themselves into oblivion.)

- Third, it ignores the variety of other, nuanced circumstantial influences which impact the balance of power. The Circle of Eight, for instance, won't be forming an alliance with the Triumvirate Rebellious any time soon -- that's a very real limitation to both factions, but one with no mechanical basis... There are examples of this to be found in examining the relationship of any two factions (to some extent), adding up to a net "alliance potential" that will favor some over others.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the system does not require perfect balance between all factions; only that all factions are strong enough to be competitive, and that no faction is so strong as to be immune to competition. I think, with just a bit of pinching, we're close to being there already.

The reason you can get away with this is that the game is almost naturally self-balancing. A faction with a large population but poor strategic territory will look to deal with a faction that has the opposite; if their population advantage is especially large, they're likely to be fairly generous in these deals as an enticement, resulting in a general balancing. More generally, I'd say that the larger powers will tend to ally with the smaller powers, while the middle powers will tend to stay allied along the middle... My reasoning being that is long and probably flawed, so let me just call it a general prediction.

I certainly wouldn't press a trait onto anyone, and fully admit that I didn't check too closely (or know where to look) to find former traits - but just for acknowledgement's sake, what does everyone think about the new traits like Good and Spelljammer?

Spelljammer trait: All their armies can attack any point? That's huge, IMO unless I'm vastly overrating the role of territory... Considering Zelda/Airwhale are pretty much right on the average ATM, I don't see why this is necessary, either.

Good trait: Not even looking at balance here, that rule just sounds like no fun. And no fun is no good.

Anyway, that's my piece for the night... I hate to just disagree and run without presenting alternatives, so I'll be sure and post some alternative suggestions tomorrow.

 

[Creamsteak]

Don't forget, my group is in possession of at least a reasonably powerful artifact (and if Serpenteye is treating artifacts as important pieces as they were in previous IRs, that counts for something).

Second, I'll have a sizeable amount of elite and epic PL compared to an equally sized faction. Even the least beholders/flayers are damn threatening compared to a conscript.

If Serpenteyes wants me to claim more power, feh. Well, I don't see a reason. The cultists and slaves form my most basic armies, but they are nothing compared to the aboleth/beholders/illthids and such.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

As I said before, all I would claim are more drow (and their slaves.) Lots of drow. As many drow as it takes to reach the 350 I was going for, the 400 you propose, or whatever.
I'm keeping it simple. Just drow. No expansion of the yuan-ti. No claims to other races, Underdark or otherwise.

I'm not going for any special traits, like Infiltration. Eclavdra is an Epic PC, has her 3 artifacts, and with that I am content.

- - -

Nac Mac Feegle, check your roster. The Isle of the Phoenix is there.

- - -

Forsaken One, I will change your roster. Give me til tomorrow to do so, since it is a massive change.

TO EVERYONE: The nations of Zingia, Nippon, and the Nippon Dominion are now OPEN to claims. To see them and their power levels, please look at Forsaken One's roster in the megapost (since I haven't had time yet to relist these nations as unclaimed.)

Remember that Zingia, Nippon, and the Nippon Dominion are highly civilized, flourishing, and prosperous civilizations (although not necessarily good.) Their PL/IC is quite high to reflect this.

And again, we may have a new player - Radiant - if some of you would go over to the recruiting thread and give him some encouragement. I've already done so.

- - -

I'm still vague about a lot of the rules. Been too busy with the roster to study them carefully enough.
So, I am just accounting with your IC/PL levels. It seemed to me 350 was the average, and that there was an imbalance. But I'm not an expert on the rules, and you'all and Serpenteye will have to debate the matter. I can't.
But I do think that Xael with 77 points versus Knight Otu with 650 is unbalanced.

- - -

James, could you put up the picture of Eclavdra again? This time with milk-white skin and purple eyes? You said she was a cutie, and I'm curious as to what you drew, before it all got effaced by the ink black color of her skin.
And perhaps, somehow, there is a way to show off her features despite her skin color? I don't know.
But it would be neat to see her as she would have looked, were she an elf!
If you will do this, my appreciations!

And James, if you have the URL for the thumbnails of your (beautiful) map of Oerik, I will post it IMMEDIATELY to the megapost, right up there in the important map links, if you give that URL to me!

 

[James Heard]

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