Nac Mac Feegle said:
The Kabalim claim the Isle of the Phoenix (pending Serpenteye's approval) as part of a campaign to rectify the power situation.
Granted.
Edena_of_Neith said:
I have updated the megapost. It is updated up to this post I am writing now.
There is a SERIOUS power inequity among the powers, as follows:
TOTAL IC OF AIRWHALES' POWER SO FAR: 346.2 IC (average)
TOTAL IC OF ANABSTERCORIANS' POWER SO FAR: 53.1 IC (extremely underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF BUGBEARS' POWER SO FAR: 378 IC (average)
TOTAL IC OF CREAMSTEAKS' POWER SO FAR: 180.2 IC (badly underpowered.)
TOTAL IC OF DEMON ATHIESTS' POWER SO FAR: Unknown
TOTAL IC OF DEVILISHS' POWER SO FAR: 275.2 IC (slightly underpowered. Serpenteye, take note. Also, I - knowing the Solistarim since I created them - suggest the population and IC of the Solistarim should be DOUBLED from it's CURRENT value as given above.)
TOTAL IC OF EDENA OF NEITHS' POWER SO FAR: 220 IC (underpowered.)
To rectify my own situation, I wish to claim the drow under Hempmonaland, the Baklunish lands, the Suel Imperium (if any exist), Zingia, Nippon, the Nippon Dominion, Komal, Orcreich, Upper and Lower Khanate, and the Nations of the Mare Mysticum and Lynn (this should give James pause!) (No drow exist under the Solistarim lands, since the Solistarim killed them all long ago.)
I wish to claim fully 5,000,000 drow and their servitors, boosting my power by 150 IC, giving me a starting IC of 370, which would be average for the IR.
Just a request.
I don't want more races for my power. Just more drow.
(As they say, the more, the merrier!)
TOTAL IC OF ELUVANS' POWER SO FAR: 615 IC (overpowered)
TOTAL IC OF FORSAKEN ONES' POWER SO FAR: 454 IC (slightly overpowered)
TOTAL IC OF GUILT PUPPYS' POWER SO FAR: 330 IC (just under average)
TOTAL IC OF JAMES HEARDS' POWER SO FAR: 556.8 IC (overpowered)
TOTAL IC OF KNIGHT OTUS' POWER SO FAR: 640 IC (overpowered)
TOTAL IC OF MELKORS' POWER SO FAR: 289 IC (somewhat underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF NAC MAC FEEGLES' POWER SO FAR: 293.3 IC (somewhat underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF PAXUS ASCLEPIUS' POWER SO FAR: 248.4 IC (underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF RIKANDURS' POWER SO FAR: 219.9 IC (underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF THOMAS' POWER SO FAR: 238 IC (underpowered)
TOTAL IC OF VENUS' POWER SO FAR: 660 IC (overpowered)
(I was going to suggest that Venus take Komal, the (large) nation sitting opposite the bay from the country of Zeif, but now I don't know what to say)
TOTAL IC OF WILLIAMS' POWER SO FAR: 591.8 IC (overpowered)
TOTAL IC OF XAELS' POWER SO FAR: 77.1 IC (Xael needs a colossal power boost. Delrune, Calrune, and Chautosbergen should have their populations counted as separate and in addition to the Vesve population, IMO. Not that that will be enough: it won't even come close.)
TOTAL IC OF ZELDAS' POWER SO FAR: 346.2 IC (average)
Some of the seemingly weaker factions (will) have a huge advantage in Elite and Epic PLs. Creamsteak, Melkor, Devilish, Rikandur, Nac Mak, Xael and you Edena, will all have a considerable advantage as compensation for your productive weakness.
Anabstercorian's power looks weaker than it is, since most of his IC will come from infiltration, but even so maybe he could use a boost. Anabstercorian, Xael and to some degree Paxus are really the only players who actually need reinforcement.
Thomas seems weak, until we remember that he's the only faction with significant access to druidic spells. And he will also have a wide-spread infiltrating influence in a lot of territories.
The solution for Anab is obvious, and I'll give him a huge amount of influence across the Flannaes.
Xael's situation is more problematic, though. Since he's playing the Circle of Eight he will have access to some resources the rest of you will be without... Perhaps I'll give him ownership of a small demi-plane within Oerth's Astral Sphere, a practically unassailable place for enemies without access to High Magic. The plane would have a population of, say, 2'000'000 people and an IC of 100.
Maybe he could also get a head-start in the magic arms-race of 10 points, that would definately bring him up to an acceptable level. How do you feel about that Xael?
Paxus should indeed have a higher population.
The factions with the highest IC will have some problems with infiltration, from both NPC and PC factions.
Edena, your own request for an additional 5'000'000 population and 150 IC is not unjustified. I'll grant you that claim, but be aware that your Elite and Epic PLs won't be quite as high as they would have been otherwise. In effect, you're trading (some) quality for quantity. On the whole, though, it is a step forwards for your faction.
Paxus Asclepius said:
For some powers, it makes sense to increase population in the region; my own goblinoids, for example, could be present in almost any numbers necessary for balance, given the degree to which I can spread up and down in the mountains. For other powers, compensation could come through higher starting values of Elite PLs.
Quite right, and if you want additional population I'll grant it.
Bugbear said:
Some of the other powers could use some tweaking of course. One could argue that My Power (378 IC) is severly underpowered with the United Kingdom (640 IC) next door. I am I too weak or is Knight Otu too strong.
A United Aeardy would be a powerhouse, I realize, so cuting back it's power most likly wouldn't be apporpriate. Increasing Nyronds Population wouldn't be very realistic solution either. Perhaps Sepenteye will give me some bonus epic PL or increase my starting IC. I don't know and won't untill he addresses Edena's post.
Personaly I would have liked to have had Aeardy split between two diferent players {Allissa & North Kingdom} for ballance reasons, but the cats out of the bag... The 3rd IR had a similar problem with Aeardy having a distinct advantage in the early part of the game. But clever playing on the part of the lesser powers resulted in Aeardy's ultimate defeat. I'm certain that the players of those powers will say that the victory was sweeter and more meaningful because they were at a disadvantage. But then again I could be wrong.
Your situation is a bit problematic, true, surrounded as you are by potentially agressive evil factions. Nyrond is a normal human country, so it can't realistically get a huge amount of Elite and Epic PLs relative to more monstrous factions...
The solution isn't obvious, but [sblock] I could give you some infiltration in Aerdy, reflecting your ambitions to restore Goodness to the kingdom. [/sblock]
Ehh, I wasn't aware that I and Mr Draco were ever defeated in the 3rd IR, though we had some minor setbacks. In the end we finished the game in a far stronger relative position than we started it, against overwhelming odds. At the beginning of the 3rd IR we were just another faction, more powerful than most but in the same general power level as a lot of other factions. At the end of the game we were the single most powerful faction in the game, no comparison.
We colonized worlds at an amazing rate towards the end and we did rule a third of Toril, (though we lost it for some strange reason after the game had ended) and that counts for a lot, I'd say.
We failed to win, of course, and that in itself constitutes a defeat, I suppose.
James Heard said:
(Numbers from here on should note that I'm just copying Edena's IC numbers, if I get something wrong it's because I copied something wrong)
Airwhale: 346.2 IC
Suggested balance- Spelljammer trait (Spelljammers armies all can attack at any point in the physical surface of a planet. All of Airwhale's armies possess a bonus that fits somewhere inbetween Regular and Elite PL)
Airwhale and Zelda will have a lot of Elite PLs to reflect their spelljamming fleets. They do not have an unlimited transportation capacity, after all.
James Heard said:
Anabstercorian: 53.1 IC
Suggested balance- Researcher trait (Increasing Tech costs 40 PP/level, Magical Research can be paid for with equivalent amounts of Elite armies.)
Plus I'd put a few hundred thousand more people in the Sea of Dust, along the edges or something, enough to suggest more armies and more IC.
Not sure if it would be enough, if not I'd add Infiltrator or more lands.
A Researcher trait is not an option. If I would make it strong enough to matter it would be unbalancing
.
Anab will be infiltrating a lot of territories from the beginning of the game. And maybe I could even give him the Trader trait he asked for.
James Heard said:
Creamsteak: 180.2 IC
Suggested balance- Increase the aboleth dominions. Those are some deep, deep holes under Oerth and who really wants to hang out and chat to do a head count? Aboleths enslave races better than almost anyone, and aboleths working with mind-flayers and fiends should probably have some enormous nightmarish cities full of generations-old slave races.
Creamsteak controls a lot of very scary monsters...
James Heard said:
Devilish: 275.2 IC
Suggested balance- Personally I'd just start counting PL nastiness with Devilish's faction until I felt like his faction could make people wince.
Same as with Creamsteak. The Tomb of Horror isn't known for the cuddly nature of its inhabitants and the Solistarim are just plain nasty.
James Heard said:
Edena: 220 IC
Suggested balance- Like the aboleths mentioned above, I think population figures could get a simple boost by noting that a "yuan-ti empire" facing jungle tribesmen could easily have quadrupled in size just from the yuan-ti forcing those evil snake breeding programs upon them. You know, the ones where they try to see how many snake heads they can make you grow.
+5'000'000 population.
James Heard said:
Eluvan: 615 IC
Suggested balance- Goodness trait (Factions with the goodness trait can't attack others unless they've been attacked. Factions at war with a faction with the goodness trait can pay 50 PL to end the war and "reset" their status) This would make Eluvan the sleeping giant of the Flanaess I suppose, but he's got an awful lot of territory. For more crunchiness allow Eluvan to declare an alliance for 50 PL, which means his allies enemies are his own.
I think that most players of Good factions will impose some restrictions on themselves about not attacking without very good reasons. Their populations might disagree with a too agressive foreign-policy, and players who play their Good factions as if they were Evil will face internal unrest. I'm not going to codify this, but it is something that should be kept in mind.
Eluvan will also have some problems with infiltration.
James Heard said:
Guilt Puppy: 330 IC
Suggested balance- Espionage trait, which I thought GP already had (and I would probably not make quite as cool as it is now, but that's just me)
The Brotherhood and their territories would be almost completely free from infiltration at the beginning of the game. They also benefit from their peripheral location and a decent amount of Elite armies.
James Heard said:
James Heard: 556.8 IC
Suggested balance- Lower IC by allocating native infiltration. The entire Empire of Lynn is at a boiling point. This should be reflected.
Quite right.
James Heard said:
Knight Otu: 640 IC
Suggested balance- Again, lower IC by allocating native infiltration. The Great Kingdom should still be suffering the effects of rebellion and warring internal factions.
Indeed.
James Heard said:
Melkor: 289 IC
Suggested balance- Out of sight, out of mind. Just add more population.
Kick-ass PLs, a defendable location, the fact that a lot of his population are undead and thus gains a bonus in combat in the early-mid game...
James Heard said:
Nac Mac Feegle: 293.3 IC
Suggested balance- More PLs than Guilt Puppy, and the Infiltrator trait.
A Head-start in the magical arms race of 10 points= 1000 ppts.
James Heard said:
Paxus Asclepius: 248.4 IC
Suggested balance- I'd probably triple the population of the Pomarj at least, and probably some other territories.
+population.
James Heard said:
Rikander Azebol: 219.9 IC
Suggested balance- I hear the legions are rather large this time of year. Iuz's faction should have the power (if not the resources) to engage a much larger faction. Mucho PL.
PL
James Heard said:
Thomas Hobbes: 238 IC
Suggested balance- I'd probably give Thomas the Infiltrator trait, simply because he's got the Tritherions on his side and because it's an easy solution. Plus it gives a good Infiltrator faction.
Druids. Infiltrated territories.
James Heard said:
Venus: 660 IC
Suggested balance- Native infiltration. Orcs fight amongst themselves.
Yes.
James Heard said:
William: 591.8 IC
Suggested balance- No clue. Maybe make them a Good trait faction too?
William is the most powerful player in the game as things stand now. Not only does he have a high IC, he also owns several high-EPL locations and has his own demigod. A formidable combination.
He would be dangerous even with a weak faction but with his current power he's deadly.
Infiltration is the answer in this case too.
James Heard said:
Xael: 77.1 IC
Suggested balance- Wow. Hrm. No clue.
PLs, magic arms race, demiplane.
The Forsaken One said:
I'm dropping all my claims, I'm still extremely unsatisfied with them.
I'm claiming the red kingdom and don't give a rats ass about balance.
Granted.
Anabstercorian said:
Well, there are a couple things you've missed.
First off, I already have the Infiltrator trait.
Second off, Serpenteye apparently is giving me a bigger population - the territory surrounding Greyhawk is some of the most densely populated land on Oerth, as he put it.
Barring that, I'd like the Trade Nexus trait, which would let me improve my IC slightly more cheaply.
Yes, the Greyhawk Domain has a population of 1'300'000 and an IC of 70.
Your main strength lies in Infiltration.
A Trade Nexus trait would be problematic since it could only reasonably apply to some of your territories. The Bright Desert of the Sea of Dust are not exactly pathways of trade...
James Heard said:
I certainly wouldn't press a trait onto anyone, and fully admit that I didn't check too closely (or know where to look) to find former traits - but just for acknowledgement's sake, what does everyone think about the new traits like Good and Spelljammer?
I think the same effects can be attained within the current rules-set.
James Heard said:
In my defense my revised Researcher trait is a lot weaker than the older one I think. It gives people a little leg up on the tech tree and the ability to exchange Elite armies for Epic spell research at the same cost - meaning that you wouldn't have to upgrade your elite armies to epic before you researched High Magic, you'd just be able to sacrifice a heapin' lot o'them if you wanted to all at once. You'd still have to spend PP's to get to that point though, which I'm not convinced would severely imbalance things as much as lowering spell research costs (which was the former, right?). 3000PPs worth of armies is 3000PPs, right?
Non-Epic individuals are simply not competent enough to research High Magic.
Creamsteak said:
Don't forget, my group is in possession of at least a reasonably powerful artifact (and if Serpenteye is treating artifacts as important pieces as they were in previous IRs, that counts for something).
Second, I'll have a sizeable amount of elite and epic PL compared to an equally sized faction. Even the least beholders/flayers are damn threatening compared to a conscript.
If Serpenteyes wants me to claim more power, feh. Well, I don't see a reason. The cultists and slaves form my most basic armies, but they are nothing compared to the aboleth/beholders/illthids and such.
Your position is strong, Creamsteak, so I see no need to give you more power. In addition to your beneficial geographic loaction and your many Elite and Epic PLs you also have the Alien trait, giving you a nice bonus against enemy infiltration.
Artifacts are represented by Epic PLs, but they are not quite that straight-forward. In specific situations they can be awesomely powerful, and in others no more than a commom (if expensive) magical item. They are unpredictable, but their power is undeniable.
Edena_of_Neith said:
I'm still vague about a lot of the rules. Been too busy with the roster to study them carefully enough.
So, I am just accounting with your IC/PL levels. It seemed to me 350 was the average, and that there was an imbalance. But I'm not an expert on the rules, and you'all and Serpenteye will have to debate the matter. I can't.
But I do think that Xael with 77 points versus Knight Otu with 650 is unbalanced.
It's still not an even playing-field, it's not really supposed to be, but the weaker factions will get a bit of a boost.
But your faction seems kinda alien to me 
