[Iron Heroes] Magic oddities.

[JohnSnow]

Has anyone thought of the Midnight (FFG) Channeler? That system works quite well. All you'd need to do is figure out how to integrate the token pool. I play Midnight and since Iron Heroes first test for me will be in that setting...the Channeler is the class that came to mind.

Well, I don't know if Mike has, but I, for one, absolutely have.

I started tweaking the Midnight magic system to be more "generic" than standard D&D by using ideas pilfered from the Wheel of Time game. The more into it I got, the more I realized that there was a LOT to do. I finally gave up over the work load of it, but the basics of the system worked like this:

1. Magic draws from a discrete "menu" of effects. Rather than spells, there are "casting methods." I don't like D&D's "schools of effect" and think a more primitive world should have a more primitive system, pieces of which might resemble the D&D schools. Basically, you create discrete, well-balanced varieties of magic rather than trying to shoehorn balance onto the default D&D list.
2. Low-level effects are relatively easy, even at low levels. The "magic equal to mundane effects" syndrome. These are the caster's "bread and butter abilities." However, magic's not entirely reliable (and requires a fair amount of effort) so it can't actually "replace" non-magical abilities for society as a whole.
3. As casters go up in level, they learn to use more "impactful" magic. However, they can only use it so much in a given encounter, being limited by their ability to handle magical energy. The risk of failure still prevents spellcasters from making "routine" use of magic. So while you can "create fire," most spellcasters will still use a flint & steel most of the time.
4. Casters can exceed their normal casting limits at GREAT risk. This is the "hail mary" idea of magic which allows an untrained novice to throw a mighty spell that annhilates a horde of approaching orcs...but causes said novice to incinerate him/herself in the process.

Those are the basics. I started with the Midnight "spell energy" concept, then starting welding on flexible effects from the Wheel of Time. Rewriting the schools is where the whole thing fell apart. I think combining Iron Heroes "mana" rules and magical feat masteries might make the thing work, but ideally, you'd have to rewrite the magical types.

Personally, I'd be very curious what Wil Upchurch and Mike Mearls could come up with if they worked together at it. But I'll probably never get to see that since they're both busy guys.

 

[Armistice]

Wow. The flexible effects will kill you every time. I wouldn't even try. I'd maybe tack on the AE spell list to approximate dynamic spellcasting and call it a day.

 

[Malachias Invictus]

Or a fourth option. Pretty wild and wacky, I know, but bear with me on this:

Don't focus on magic. Leave the system as it is.

I've heard that in playtesting it seems to have worked pretty well.

Sorry, but for my group, that is not an acceptable alternative. I am sure that is true for others as well.

 

[MacMathan]

Yeah I am less happy with WoTCs aquistion of Mearls now as it leaves the IH line without its deisgner.

I really love this book but it feels like my choices are; burn time I don't have to rework the magic system or run a game with no casting types at all.

It is just too bad, so much potential given the time and continued focus of the creator.

 

[Ketjak]

So... Wiki?

So did anyone end up setting up a Wiki for this? I'm pretty sure I read through the entire (painful) discussion on the Monte boards and saw nothing except "wouldn't it be cool if..." I mean, it sure would be cool if someone were to set up a wiki... cooler still if it existed.

My Iron Heroes thoughts: damn fabulous. I haven't dived into the magic system so I missed the break. However, everything else is spot on. Kudos, Mearls, kudos.

I'm considering an Eberron Iron Heroes campaign set in the final days of the Age of Giants. Elves scrambling to build an identity, or a few thousand years after they've done so. Early humans (grafted into the setting) still sorting things out among themselves, picking up the giants' artifacts and elven table scraps. Some of those things blow up in their faces. Mmmm.

- Ket

 

[Kaos]

Or a fourth option. Pretty wild and wacky, I know, but bear with me on this:

Don't focus on magic. Leave the system as it is.

I've heard that in playtesting it seems to have worked pretty well.

From what I've heard of the playtesting, the Arcanist didn't do much invoking of the magic system itself. And in order to 'not focus on the magic,' I'd either have to hope that the 'issues' I see are never invoked or excise the Arcanist entirely.

I'm not fond of either of those options.

Unacceptable. Heck, leave it out of the PHB if you can't make it work.

Which is precisely what I wanted to do.

Oh, blaming the editors now, are we?

This line of conversation runs great risk of invoking old Monte-bashing habits that I said I would give up after hearing about IH

Has anyone thought of the Midnight (FFG) Channeler? That system works quite well. All you'd need to do is figure out how to integrate the token pool. I play Midnight and since Iron Heroes first test for me will be in that setting...the Channeler is the class that came to mind.

Don't know enough about Midnight, but the Arcanist-as-written doesn't use tokens as a class feature anyway. They're a Cool New Feature, not a system-requirement.

I really love this book but it feels like my choices are; burn time I don't have to rework the magic system or run a game with no casting types at all.

There are other options. Folks who have time and like to tinker are tinkering, and their results should show up at the Iron League(?) eventually. Other options include converting an appropriate spellcasting class (suggestions so far include the warlock, AE classes or the channeler from midnight.)

My Iron Heroes thoughts: damn fabulous. I haven't dived into the magic system so I missed the break. However, everything else is spot on. Kudos, Mearls, kudos.

Just want to echo this. I may be loudly complaining about one section of the game, but only because I have a hard time justifying a post that says nothing more than "This ****ing rocks!" Which is how I feel about everthing else.

 

[Driddle]

Directly to the point: Why is it so frippin' important that players have access to magic in the game? What makes it impossible to play IH -- or any other variant rules -- without 'tweaking' the magic system?

Overheard at the ice cream parlor...
Child: "I want double-chocolate fudge."
Mother: "They don't have double-chocolate fudge here, dear."
Child: "But I want double-chocolate fudge!!!"
Mother: "Honey, why don't you try chocolate-caramel ripple for a change? Or rocky road? Or any one of the other 48 flavors they're offering? ... They look delightful."
Child: "I. WANT. DOUBLE. CHOCOLATE. FUDGE!"
Mother: "Sweetie, let's go home now so I can kick your father in his testicles."

 

[Kaos]

Directly to the point: Why is it so frippin' important that players have access to magic in the game?

Because it's there. Because it's Fantasy, not PseudoHistorical. Because the Arcanist as presented would be just as freakin' cool as the rest of the classes, if he was given access to a system that filled it's potential.

What makes it impossible to play IH -- or any other variant rules -- without 'tweaking' the magic system?

Other variant rules will differ, depending on how they've set up the magic, but no one has said 'impossible' wrt IH. Unacceptable or undesirable. Certainly, I've admitted that it would be possible to just excise the arcanist and be done with it - it's not an ideal solution, but it would work.

Overheard at the ice cream parlor...
Child: "I want double-chocolate fudge."
Mother: "They don't have double-chocolate fudge here, dear."

Child: "Then why are you getting double-chocolate fudge?"

 

[Driddle]

Because it's there. Because it's Fantasy, not PseudoHistorical....

Fantasy does not require the presence of magic. It requires a creative mind.

 

[Felon]

Overheard at the ice cream parlor...
Child: "I want double-chocolate fudge."
Mother: "They don't have double-chocolate fudge here, dear."
Child: "But I want double-chocolate fudge!!!"
Mother: "Honey, why don't you try chocolate-caramel ripple for a change? Or rocky road? Or any one of the other 48 flavors they're offering? ... They look delightful."
Child: "I. WANT. DOUBLE. CHOCOLATE. FUDGE!"
Mother: "Sweetie, let's go home now so I can kick your father in his testicles."

Child: " you, lady! I'm the one paying for the goddam ice cream, and if they don't have any DOUBLE. CHOCOLATE. ING. FUDGE then I'm going to get in my car and drive some-ing-place else, got it, ? And you can shove that patronizing tone, DEAR!"

Fantasy does not require the presence of magic. It requires a creative mind.

Nice sound bite. Let's get substantive. You certainly need some element of the fantastic in order to have fantasy. And that fantastic element can be called "magic" as easily as anything else,