Iron Heroes...what's your opinion?

[Iron_Chef]

What can you tell us about the Conan magic system? What's the basis?

Spellcasting in Conan is fueled by Power Points; spells are placed in sorcerous traditions (schools). To learn an advanced spell, you must learn the basic spell it is based upon, IIRC.

Only one spellcasting class: The Scholar (which can represent a non-magical scholarly type or any kind of wizard). Spellcasters are rather weak to start, but can gain some very nasty spells later on. Corruption (like Dark Side Points in Star Wars) serve as a controlling factor in using black magic and making pacts with demons. Most who use "dark" spells eventually become evil, genetically mutated and insane megalomaniacs, just like Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu. I think the Conan system works, but I just don't care for it much. YMMV.

Of the variant magic systems I've seen, my favorites are Call of Cthulhu d20, where anybody who takes the time can learn to cast spells regardless of class (casting damages ability scores and inflicts Sanity Loss to cast, similar to Vile/Corrupt spells in D&D which were based on CoC d20) and Star Wars (spells are skills and what effects you can achieve are limited by how many ranks you have in the spell).

The bedst part about CoC is you can just use it as is to replace all magic in D&D. This eliminates all spellcasting classes. You may need to add a Scholar class as per Conan, however.

With a Star Wars derivative magic system (my current pet project), for example, you could have one "fire magic" skill. Depending on how many ranks you have in Fire Magic, you can create Burning Hands, Dancing Lights, Fireball, Wall of Fire, etc. Now, each such effect has a flat or variable Vitality Point cost to cast and/or maintain. VP work just like HP in D&D, a variable number gained per character level based on class pursued. So, this serves as the controlling factor in how much magic any character can cast. A number of VP = to your character level are regained per hour. Now remember, VP are also used to evade taking wound point damage in battle. If you burn all your VP casting spells, you are probably going to die if you take damage, because that damage will go immediately to wound points! Wound Points (or WP) equal your CON stat + Toughness feats. Critical hits (when confirmed) are applied to WP, not VP, but the highest damage multiplier is x2. This makes the game much deadlier, and more realistic. Defense replaces AC, and Armor provides Damage Reduction. Shields provide a Defense bonus. Each class gains a Defense bonus variable by level similar to BAB.

When you cast a spell in a Star Wars derived magic system, you roll a d20 to set the DC of the save vs. your spell, or the efficacy of your casting (for spells with no saves or those that have beneficial effects such as heal or bull's strength). Spells that do damage always deliver damage, but targets can save for half.

 

[Iron_Chef]

A Game of Thrones RPG (available in d20 and TriStat versions) will feature a new rules set for running gritty (mostly) non-magical fantasy. This comes out in early October from White Wolf/Guardians of Order. I have the advance deluxe pdf and while I haven't read it thoroughly yet (waiting on my hard copy to arrive), it looks fantastic. If you are familiar with George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series that this RPG is based on, you know the incredible level of medieval setting detail you are getting in this book and the d20 system has been tweaked to fit just like it was for Conan). AGOT uses reduced HP gain like Conan rather than VP/WP. Magic will be covered in detail in a future sourcebook.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Now, if all you want is regular high-powered D&D combat but with reduced or no magic, then Iron Heroes is probably the book you want. If you want deadlier combat (where high level PCs can still be cut down by low level guys and thus must always be on guard), you want to run Conan, A Game of Thrones or homebrew your own rules set using Unearthed Arcana's VP/WP system, etc.

 

[GlassJaw]

Conan OGL is a much better gritty rules set IMO, plus you get a complete setting and magic system with it (although I'm not a fan of the magic system). However, after trying the Star Wars d20 game, I'm absolutely committed to the VP/WP mechanic, which Conan, AGOT and IH lack.

You might like my variant ruleset I put together (see sig). I wrote it specifically with Grim Tales in mind but it's very universal. Speaking of Grim Tales, have you checked it out? It's my favorite low-magic, strike that, favorite d20 book, period. The magic system is excellent as well - simple yet extremely elegant and highly effective.

 

[Iron_Chef]

You might like my variant ruleset I put together (see sig). I wrote it specifically with Grim Tales in mind but it's very universal. Speaking of Grim Tales, have you checked it out? It's my favorite low-magic, strike that, favorite d20 book, period. The magic system is excellent as well - simple yet extremely elegant and highly effective.

What is Grim Tales? Never heard of it. Sounds like a Fairy Tale RPG, LOL.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

With a Star Wars derivative magic system (my current pet project), for example, you could have one "fire magic" skill. Depending on how many ranks you have in Fire Magic, you can create Burning Hands, Dancing Lights, Fireball, Wall of Fire, etc. Now, each such effect has a flat or variable Vitality Point cost to cast and/or maintain. VP work just like HP in D&D, a variable number gained per character level based on class pursued. So, this serves as the controlling factor in how much magic any character can cast. A number of VP = to your character level are regained per hour. Now remember, VP are also used to evade taking wound point damage in battle. If you burn all your VP casting spells, you are probably going to die if you take damage, because that damage will go immediately to wound points! Wound Points (or WP) equal your CON stat + Toughness feats. Critical hits (when confirmed) are applied to WP, not VP, but the highest damage multiplier is x2. This makes the game much deadlier, and more realistic. Defense replaces AC, and Armor provides Damage Reduction. Shields provide a Defense bonus. Each class gains a Defense bonus variable by level similar to BAB.

When you cast a spell in a Star Wars derived magic system, you roll a d20 to set the DC of the save vs. your spell, or the efficacy of your casting (for spells with no saves or those that have beneficial effects such as heal or bull's strength). Spells that do damage always deliver damage, but targets can save for half.

And please post this system if you ever advance it from pet project to mostly finished

 

[Iron_Chef]

And please post this system if you ever advance it from pet project to mostly finished

Will do. It's hopefully the next fantasy game I run, although we are excited about playing A Game of Thrones d20 RPG. Right now, though, I'm hooked on Star Wars d20.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Spellcasting in Conan is fueled by Power Points; spells are placed in sorcerous traditions (schools). To learn an advanced spell, you must learn the basic spell it is based upon, IIRC.

Only one spellcasting class: The Scholar (which can represent a non-magical scholarly type or any kind of wizard). Spellcasters are rather weak to start, but can gain some very nasty spells later on. Corruption (like Dark Side Points in Star Wars) serve as a controlling factor in using black magic and making pacts with demons.

A couple of interesting bits of additional information that add to the Conan magic flavour: You can gain additional power points by sacrificing victims. There are feats to enable impromptu sacrifices to do it quickly, torturous sacrifices to eke more pp out of the victims etc. Very nice and flavourful.

The Corruption is much more serious than StarWars dark side points, from the very beginning it starts giving you horrible nightmares and every step from there is a bad one (unlike DSP which don't matter until you get quite a few accumulated).

There is also the possibility of horrible magical accidents occuring when casting the more powerful spells.

It's one of my favourite magic systems and really captures the Conan feel nicely.

Cheers

 

[Bagpuss]

What is Grim Tales? Never heard of it. Sounds like a Fairy Tale RPG, LOL.

No, that would be Grimm easy to confuse.

 

[Odhanan]

So, what exactly is the problem with the magic system? I'm curious about Iron Heros, but I'm allergic to buying books that were published with the author knowing that part of it was unfinished.

To be frank? Nothing particularly. Just a couple of things that were clarified in the errata. But take a book written by Mike Mearls who's known for his rule tinkering, multiply this factor by a magic system that is loose enough to allow interpretations a la Call of Cthulhu, and you get lots of people thinking it's not precise enough and deserves a variant of their own. I think the magic system of IH is playable AND effective just as is.

Obviously, you will hear a majority of people disagreeing on this point. Two main critics I've heard:
- The magic system is unfinished (IMO - it is loose but not loose enough to be unplayable, and I appreciate stuff I can build on. Many people seem to think methods given in the book (methods are similar to spell lists for each school of magic) are the only ones existing. Far from it! You can add and add to the existing system, and I think that multiple methods for each school are what's missing, even if a few, like Necromancy, present multiple methods).
- The magic system is underpowered (IMO - only if you compare it to D&D, which would be a mistake. Playing an arcanist in IH can be greatly rewarding. If you play your mana smart enough, you can be outstanding in many types of situations - after all, Armor DR isn't applying for magic and energies! Add to this the fact that the arcanist gets the benefits of all IH characters (i.e. one feat per two levels), plus bonus feats, and you get potentially one hell of a character)

So to summarize, the magic system is just fine for me.

But now, you've got to separate my opinion from the fact I'm an Iron Liege. As such, I've got to help the fans of IH get what they want and how they want it. And many fans want variants of the Magic system. Why not? There's a spellcasting wiki available to visitors of the Iron League, by the way. The link is in the "Sorcery" section.