Iron Heroes...what's your opinion?

[GlassJaw]

Wow, lots for me to respond to! Perhaps I would undertake the challenge now but alas, I have a belly fully of ribs and cornbread and a solid buzz so I will wait until tomorrow. I hope everyone can wait that long.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

How I wish my FLGS had a nice bench I could sit on and read the darn thing.

I flipped through it at the FLGS and came within an inch of buying it, since it looked cool, but decided not to, as my purchase stack was already nearing $100. And then I remembered BoIM looked cool on first read, too.

Brad

 

[Skywalker]

Wow, I'm obviously in the minority here but I finally got a chance to read it and I don't like it all. Seriously.

Well, if you are then I am in the minority too. I must admit I had my suspicions from the teasers but I found myself underwhelmed by IH for the same reasons you have stated and this feeling got worse the more I read. I found that the book had a sprinkling of good ideas (most of these were stated in the early teaser material) but the product overall was very uneven and, on further exploration, incomplete.

*sigh*

 

[Kaos]

I haven't had chance to play it yet, but I have it and have read it. I think it's fantastic, at least from a combat point of view. I'm not convinced by the magic system, though I must admit I haven't seen it in operation.

It's what I wanted D&D to be, almost.

Aside from errata (most of which is typo-oriented, but occasionally leaves some clarity problems) and some issues with the magic system, I'd echo Morrus' words.

Combat... I wouldn't say it slows down. Takes a bit longer, perhaps, but it stays interesting enough that it doesn't qualify as slow IMO.

I'm unclear on this idea that the VP/WP system is supposed to have the same 'goal' as the HP/reserves system, though. AIUI, VP/WP are an attempt to subdivide the hitpoint abstraction (allowing for, among other things, more lethality or lasting damage out of single strikes,) while HP/reserves are there to maintain it.

 

[Dragonblade]

I thought Iron Heroes was good with some reservations. I agree that IH characters are on par with magic item wielding characters until about level 15 or so. After that I think the power balance begins to shift back to standard D&D characters with magic items. I don't necessarily think thats a bad thing. Just an observation.

Although, I liked what they were attempting with the magic system, I think they failed in the end. The implementation felt clunky. I also expected the Arcanist to be on par with a D&D caster with magic items, just like the IH warrior classes are on par with D&D warrior classes with magic items. Not even close. Arcanist's are not only weaker than D&D casters with magic items, they are weaker than D&D casters who have no magic items!

This makes them significantly weaker than the other IH classes and in my opinion renders the class largely unplayable as a PC class. Since the power level and balance was supposed to be on par with standard D&D sans magic items, I was extremely disappointed. A 10th level Arcanist should be able to drop the equivalent of at least one 10d6 Fireball per encounter without difficulty, IMO.

I also didn't like how the Arcanist's magic fell back to the tired D&D standard of being balanced per day instead of per encounter. If anything, some sort of mana token pool would have been perfect for the Arcanist.

Anyway, warrior classes get a big thumbs up! Magic system and Arcanist class get a big thumbs down.

 

[Particle_Man]

Is it just me, or are Berserkers that choose the ability to increase their con while in a temporary rage in big trouble? There is no healing magic to help them out when they go unconscious, and when the rage runs out...

 

[GlassJaw]

The roleplaying section *insults your intelligence*? If you recall, I asked for specifics. Specifically, how does it insult your intelligence.

Because in the intro it states that the book is an advanced ruleset for people familiar with RPG's. If that's the case, I don't need a chapter telling me that I'm going to forgot how to role-play my character because of the orgasmic combat experience Iron Heroes provides. It's just foolish.

That is simply nonsense. I spend a ton of money on gaming-related stuff, and I don't waste it on "benefit of the doubt". Iron Heroes was well worth every penny, and then some. I wish I got as much utility and pleasure out of all my gaming purchases.

Well if you read my last post on this issue, I think I explained myself quite well. I don't think the topic needs further discussion.

 

[GlassJaw]

4) Keep in mind that the book is also intended to be read and easily understood by RPG (or at lease, D20) virgins. The fact that is has a roleplaying chapter is commendable.

Absolutely untrue, as proven by the text in the intro. The author states it is an advanced rulebook for those familiar with RPG's.

 

[GlassJaw]

I think this is the essence of the difference I was trying to get at, but first let me apologize.

No apologies necessary.

My problem with Conan as a system is the very thing you bring up as a feature. Every new change it made to the system was in regard to a specific question. Each answer was tailored.

This is not my preferred style of game design. To me it feels too modular and grainy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "modular and grainy" but the difference for me is that Conan has a purpose. Again, I'm still not sure what IH's purpose is.

IH does a better job precisely because it is not question specific. The How and Why is only referenced to other parts of the system. It feels more like a complete text and it's easier to get a picture of how the different parts of the system relate to each other than it is something with an organization like Conan where instead of letting the play style demonstrate itself it tells you what it's doing.

I lost you after the first sentence so I will address that. While I agree IH is not advertised as setting-specific, I feel that's one of the problems. The ruleset is VERY specific to something, the reader just doesn't know what. Honestly, as a DM, I wouldn't really know how to run an IH game. The mechanics are clear and precise but what do you do with them in an actual campaign?

You say IH is a generic system and I say it's not. The ruleset is too hard-coded to be generic. It's even more inflexible than standard D&D. If you want a generic system, you have to go the other way.

Now, if you want to discuss a ruleset that is completely non-specific (and yes, I'm going to bring into this thread), I have to direct your attention to Grim Tales. GT is a completely generic system. The difference with GT is that is truely allows you to use it for any setting that you can imagine. And the cool thing about GT is that if you give it to 10 different people, each person will be inspired to create 10 different settings just by reading the mechanics.

I don't get that feeling from IH. Conan knows what it wants to be, it tells the reader what it is, and it delivers. Grim Tales know what it is and lets the reader decide what to make of it. I don't think IH does any of that.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm unclear on this idea that the VP/WP system is supposed to have the same 'goal' as the HP/reserves system, though.

Regardless of the means in which they acheive it, the "goal" of each system is the same: to allow character to recover more quickly between battles in a setting in which magical healing is rare or non-existant. Yes, the VP/WP system does have a higher degree of lethality built-in (which I prefer, but that's neither here nor there in this thread) but I feel the mechanics are much cleaner.