Iron Will or Close Quarter Fighting

[Rashak Mani]

My Dwarven Fighter/Barbarian 4/4 will soon get his 5th lvl of Barbarian and a feat... see if my logic isnt flawed.

I reasoned that since I make good damage and hitting power already... that dedicating more feats to combat stuff will only make me do more of what I already am good at... Impr Critical for example gives me more damage potential... but having a Great Axe +2 and Raging already do that.

I was reasoning that I should use my feat to protect myself from being totally made useless in combat and not make more damage. What takes a Barbarian Fighter out most ? Spells and Impr Grab was my answer ... am I wrong ?

Iron Will will make my bad Will save go only +2 better thou... Close Quarter Combat (you get AOO against Impr Grab and damage counts to escape check) thou almost guarantees getting away from Improved Grabbing Bites and Swallows. The Cleric usually can use a Dispel Magic to get my unparalyzed or uncharmed... but no magic can save me from a Big Beast Belly...

How common has Impr Grab been a problem for your PCs ? Will it be so infrequent as too be useless ? Or is it a life saver ? Even with a raging +6 str its very hard to get rid of grapples... At 9th lvl is it the best choice for me... or will thos +2 Will get me rid of many more spells ?

Any other non FR feats I should have a look at ? What feats have your Fighter Types chosen at higher levels ?

( Dwarf 4 fighter/5 Barbarian - Str 18 (22) Dex 16 Great Axe Specialist AC 21 (19) Will save +4 (w/ +2 cloak) )

Thank You for any Input...

 

[hong]

It depends on what sort of enemies you usually fight. If you're fighting lots of dire beasts, wilderness monsters and such, then CQC is useful. If you're fighting humanoids, giants and NPCs with class levels, then it's not. I would say that at high level your most dangerous opposition is probably going to be spellcasters, so Iron Will would be the way to go.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Yet I cant feel that Iron Will is too little too late... even being a Dwarf (+2 vs spells) Will saves tend to be too hard.

My will save is +2 base (+2 raging) with a cloak +2 = 6
+8 total vs spells in rage Iron will would make it +10 wow.. hehe not bad actually.

Usually thou I would have a +4 going to +6 Will save with Iron Will....

How many Fighter Type actually do get Iron Will ?

 

[Jhamin]

Yet I cant feel that Iron Will is too little too late... even being a Dwarf (+2 vs spells) Will saves tend to be too hard.

My will save is +2 base (+2 raging) with a cloak +2 = 6
+8 total vs spells in rage Iron will would make it +10 wow.. hehe not bad actually.

Usually thou I would have a +4 going to +6 Will save with Iron Will....

How many Fighter Type actually do get Iron Will ?

Once again this comes down to what you are running into.

In my game that kind of a will save won't do you much good against the big, main badguy. On the other hand it would be great for dealing with all the low level casters that are always backing up groups of mooks.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The fighter I'm currently playing has Iron Will and a 12 WIS, giving him some shot at making WILL saves - actually, he's only failed one WILL save in his entire career (embarassingly enough against a Daze Cantrip). The only reason he doesn't have Close Quarters Fighting is because our DM isn't allowing S&F.

We haven't encounter a lot of critters with Improved Grab (one was a purple worm, though - swallowed two characters, killing one), but it is a common ability and, as we gain higher levels and face more monsters and fewer humanoids, I expect we'll see a lot more. Improved Grab, though, usually comes with a -20 penalty to the grabber's roll (so they don't end up losing thier DEX bonus for being in a grapple), so, even whith huge STR and size modifiers, it should be possible to get away from them sometimes.

The real question for you is what will you be facing more often - spellcasters are large monsters.

Another consideration is how often you get feats. If you're only going to be boosting your Barb levels from now on, whatever feat you don't take, you'll have to live without for 3 levels. If you also improve your Fighter levels, you can take Close Quarters Fighting with a Fighter Bonus Feat, and use a level-based feat for Iron Will.

 

[Painfully]

Speaking for my now 8th level dwarf fighter, Jaag, I got dominated, or mind-controlled, or whatever you call it by a vampire which IMMEDIATELY took me out of the combat...until my fellow companions decided it was time to retreat and they saw me at the exit waiting to greet them with my waraxe! My own party took me down to -9 hp when i finally stabalized. But, then again, my group's sorcerer has never held back his fireballs on my account before--it just hurts to think he almost killed me, rather than some bad guy--makes a dwarf want to turn to evil I tell ya.

Then there were the few times I was running in FEAR, due to failed saves, which along with my slow movement resulted in my ineffectiveness for several rounds while I covered the same ground to get back into the melee.

It's all about the spellcasters in the later levels and if you are a fighter and DONT have Iron Will as a feat, I sure hope you find something else to compensate for it--or you might end up becoming a puppet for some powerful mage. A fighter (having the lowest will saves of all the classes), needs every advantage he can get a hold of if he wants to survive mind-affecting spells of any kind.

Even with bonuses for being a dwarf, and a bonus when using a special item that allows me to rage like a barbarian, I STILL wish I had it, and I will certainly take it at level 9 (couldn't take it at 8 because iron will isn't a fighter bonus feat). I've paid the price for not having it many times already.

 

[Urbanmech]

Both Iron Will and Close Quarters Fighting are good but don't overlook Improved Critical. If you are the main tank in the group your job is to dish out punishment with a big axe. The increased threat range may not look like much but it really does pay off. I have a Dwarf fighter 6/ranger 4/Barbarian 3 with both improved critical and close quarters fighting. Improved Critical is almost always useful and it is fun to dish out 50+ damage on a crit and force the save vs massive damage.

But both of the other feats are good choices. Close quarters fighting saved my bacon vs a gray render, it provides a chance of extra damage and can stop those nasty side effects from being grappled (rend, swallow whole, paralyzation). But there are times I really wish I had Iron Will to make those nasty will saves.

All in all it is a tough decision. You will get the most use out of Improved Critical in the long run, but both Iron Will and Close Quarters Fighting may save you some pain in certain instances.

 

[jontherev]

CQF would be a really nice feat...IF it helped you against multiple grab attempts. As it is, you are screwed if you are up against a monster that makes a full attack action. For example, a bear would easily snag you with his second claw. Well, not necessarily, since his attack bonus would be lower, but the feat won't help you.

Every fighter should have Iron Will imo. They get enough feats as it is. Your reasoning about having lots of combat feats already is very sound. Concentrate on some defensive feats like these. CQF is very helpful, but only if the creature only gets one attack on you. You are also screwed if multiple foes try to grab you...unless you have combat reflexes. Combat reflexes still won't help vs. full attack actions from creatures w/Improved Grab though. Personally, I think CQF should be 'powered up' a bit and allow multiple AoO's vs. the same foe if you have CR. Go with Iron Will.

 

[Shallown]

I would go for Close quarter's fighting. In fact I have and it has already saved my bacon twice. Iron will is good but It just doesn't make a big enough difference and there are several ways to boost saves. But those grapples can take you out for a while and even if the grapple succeeds you inflicted some damage (hopefully). Improved grab becomes more common as you go up in levels. A grapple is also somethingother characters/party members cannot help you out with since attacking usually means you can be injured as well.

Just my veiw point from experience.
experience is a fighter/rogue 4/6 with a spiked chain and going through the return to the temple of elemental evil. if that matters

 

[Rashak Mani]

Hey guys keep it coming... still cant make up my mind !!

Darn hard decision... I will of course never forgive myself when my Iron will doesnt save me from being swallowed...

As a player I have a history of failing fear saves... I have a Druid with 20 Wis failing Fear saves... so I just might be getting a little paranoic on the Will saves... sensation of powerlessness about it that never leaves.

As for being swallowed a Rhemoraz almost swallowed me once... my uncanny dodge from the barbarian side of me avoided the ambush by a very small margin. Still haunts me

( Could close quarter combat be more or less compensated with a Slick Armor ? (+10 escape artists checks) I have a -3 armor penalty and +3 dex... that would make my check +10. )

I should be picking up a Barbarian level in order to get the uncanny dodge no flanking bonus... and later only two fighter levels for a future feat... 3 levels suffering my decision as was mentioned...