D&D 4E Is 4E the designers homebrew coming to my gaming table?

[Keldryn]

Not to tread lightly on the forum rules or involve too much religion but the concept would be similar to telling the modern day of story of Catholics, Episcopalians, etc without ever referring to the New Testament.

I am not against change per say. What I am against is destroying or discarding 3 editions of DND history. Remember they keep refering to evolution so write the fluff so it gets from point A to point B

But it's not the same as that, as there isn't any implied continuity. If your first 4e campaign is not a direct follow-up to your 1e/2e/3e Greyhawk campaign, then there is no handwaving, discarding, glossing over, or any such thing. In the reality of the 4e "default" world, this is the way it has always been. The planar cosmology of Eberron never changed in the reality of the game world; it has always been the way that it is.

If a 4th Edition D&D book for Greyhawk were to be published, it would probably retain the Great Wheel cosmology, as that is an established part of the setting.

 

[Glyfair]

If a 4th Edition D&D book for Greyhawk were to be published, it would probably retain the Great Wheel cosmology, as that is an established part of the setting.

Established? Yes. Essential? I'm no tso sure that most of the planar cosmology couldn't be discarded leaving the key parts of Greyhawk intact. What planar areas were very important in Greyhawk history? Clearly the Abyss (specifically Lolth's level). The Elemental Planes, pretty much. Most everything else could be changed in some fashion (although the Greyhawk purists would protest).

Planescape? That's clearly another story. Changes could be made there, but would either need to be retconned or justified.

 

[Reaper Steve]

another way of appealing to new players is by rewriting the setting of the game to make it more intuitive and attractive to newcomers.

Agreed. The rewrite also appeals to guys like me that have played for two decades and are quite happy to see D&D shed some barnacles.

 

[broghammerj]

Agreed. The rewrite also appeals to guys like me that have played for two decades and are quite happy to see D&D shed some barnacles.

A rewrite is one thing. It tries to cast off baggage that already saddles the author. Why upset the historical references in the game? Why not just start with something new and fresh? That would be an amazing idea! Cast off historical references without tampering with them. That way you don't break, alter, destroy that which some of us feel is important.

 

[broghammerj]

If anything, getting as far from Planescape as possible is a good thing, because it means they can publish planar stuff again and people who buy it and enjoy it won't have to listen to the Planescape grognards telling them how wrong it is.

I think your making my point for me. Leave the core vague so it doesn't create a problem. Then publish some planar stuff in a detailed book. Leave it out of core. Instead what WOTC is doing is rewriting core which I sure will make Planescapers more upset.

 

[Reaper Steve]

That way you don't break, alter, destroy that which some of us feel is important.

My guess, no offense, is because the group that feels it is important is very small.

The old cosmology is not integral to D&D as a game or a concept. It may be integral to some grognards' campaigns, and they are free to keep using it. 4e doesn't mean, 'well, all that fun I hand for the last twenty years just got flushed down the toilet'...you still had the fun and the games and memories are still totally legit. And, you can keep it alive if your games if you want.

But, IMO, the old cosmology is tired, bloated, and in desparate need of rethinking. Every time I've tried to get excited to start D&D again in the last decade, the initial excitement quickly wanes when I see all the old stuff that just doesn't cut it anymore. I think a person of any age, be it 15, 25, 35, or even 45, introduced to the D&D Great Wheel cosmology today, would just go "huh?"

Sure, I could ignore it, but when it gets to the point that more people than not are doing so, it doesn't make sense to keep it on life support. It is a much better idea to give a updated, semi-generic cosmology in the core books than it is to continue to propagate a very specific and 'unique' one than only appeals to a small group.

One thing I am convinced of is that the people who want the old stuff to stay will not be swayed of their opinion, and that's fine. I just hope they realize that they can still use it even after 4e comes out.

 

[MerricB]

The one thing I like about the concept of a game being someone's homebrew is that it has been *played* in.

How many setting books have you seen where you've thought, "this is just pushing out the door for a deadline, this was never used in an actual game"? I can think of a few early FR supplements that read like that. (I haven't read much late FR, btw).

When you look at Waterdeep and Shadowdale, you are looking at places where Ed Greenwood had his campaigns, and that got developed through play to something that made a good place to have adventures in. Similarly with Hommlet and Greyhawk - although Gary never really managed to give us the full versions of either place.

The design of 4e looks like a place that the designers are excited to play in, and will be playing in.

Cheers!

 

[broghammerj]

I couldn't disagree more. I don't want the D&D equivalent of the GURPS Basic Set. D&D as simply a toolset is dry and boring. Even if I don't use the fluff of the core rules, they at least provide some inspiration and context. I think the 4e core books should contain a playable "default" setting with enough flavour to be able to pick it up and play it. It doesn't need to be a massive tome like the FRCS; a short chapter in the PHB giving the players the important background info and a slightly longer chapter in the DMG to complement it would be sufficient. Give the new players something they can work with right out of the core books instead of requiring them to buy yet another book just to get a world to play in.

Dry and boring is not what I am advocating. The text can be flavorful and inspirational. See my previous post here regarding the barbarian. If the core books were written perfectly they would have information that would be compatible and not contradict all the setting books such as FR, Eberron, etc.

 

[broghammerj]

When you look at Waterdeep and Shadowdale, you are looking at places where Ed Greenwood had his campaigns, and that got developed through play to something that made a good place to have adventures in. Similarly with Hommlet and Greyhawk - although Gary never really managed to give us the full versions of either place.

The design of 4e looks like a place that the designers are excited to play in, and will be playing in.

You're absolutely correct. You're also referencing settings not core rules. Gary is the exception since he invented the game and I would expect to have DnD, ODnD, ADnD, etc to be based on his homebrew.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

My latest reservation is some of the fluff changes they are making:

Elemental planes more hospitable, demons/devil changes, eladrin/teiflings in the core, silly named magic traditions, points of light campaign model, cosmology/great wheel changes, etc.

In what way was, for example, First Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons not "Gary Gygax's homebrew coming to your table"?

When you can answer that question, then you'll know the extent to which Fourth Edition is a designer's homebrew coming to your table.