Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Jefe Bergenstein]

There's a long ways between having perhaps a occasional villain have a save or death effect and Tomb of Horrors (which has death-no-save effects).

Again, false dichotomies.

Actually its not entirely inappropriate. 4e focuses on larger battles, with more enemy participants. As such, you're going to face more monsters over your career. So you go from a party of 8th level adventures fighting a bodak (CR 8) as a reasonably challenging encounter to a party of 8th level adventurers fighting 4 bodaks (classified as an 8th level monster). Arming them with SoD's results in more exposure than in 3rd edition. No one else has bothered commenting on this, but it seems likely its a factor.

 

[Henry]

...I was playing a Warhammer Quest game with my normal D&D group, and I played a dwarven wizard-type as we were all attempting to flee Khazad Dum ahead of the balrog.

He caught us in one of the final chambers and I turned around and cast a spell that created a pit under him. He failed his save, and fell to his death.

Lamest ending to an adventure ever.

That was lame? Sounds to me like the kind of climax that would have made the rounds at our table for months. The chase itself can be pretty climactic, and the ending memorable just because it wasn't a protracted one.

One of my favorite scenes from a comic book, as a parallel, was in one of the DC Comics Spelljammer series. In it, a red dragon had been set up in one issue as a major villain, thinking himself the superior to a mage on the crew of the ship. He had entrapped various of the crew, and at the beginning of the next issue, the mage arrived on-scene, pissed off beyond belief, basically called the dragon a moron, cast Finger of Death, and turned his back as the Dragon hit the floor with a SLAM. Then they were on to the focus of the next adventure.

I admit, having this kind of thing happen all the time would be pretty poor, but when it happens once or twice in a character's career, it's in my experience memorable as all-out awesome.

That's just part of my play style: I like a bit of the element of all-or-nothing risk in the RPG session - beats the crap out of losing money at a Roulette or Craps table.

 

[Henry]

The trouble isn't when it happens once. It's when it happens all the time - which is pretty much what D&D combat allows.

Every combat becomes "Save or die" wars.

Cheers!

But isn't it statistically VERY unlikely to happen all the time, or even frequently?

 

[Henry]

Question: What save do you use when you're hit with a Flesh to Stone spell cast from a staff?

Answer: Your lowest.

One of the things that a lot of old-school 1E D&D'ers I have met actually LIKED was the simplification of the saves to Fort, Reflex, and Will, even if they didn't like the idea of dynamic target numbers attached to it. The five categories made a sort of sense back when those were the ONLY things that would happen to you, but that was outlived quickly after about 1980 or so.

 

[FourthBear]

I can't speak for everyone who wants to keep save or die in the game. But as for me, I've only used save or die effects twice in 15 years of DMing. I don't enjoy using save or die effects against my players. But I enjoy watching my players reactions when the possibility of fighting a wizard that's powerful enough to use those spells against the players.
Save or Die is just another tool in the DMs bag of tricks. Overusing it is a pretty lousy trick to pull on your players, I must admit. But I like having the threat of it hanging there.

If you've only used it twice in 15 full years of gaming, it seems to me that there's no compelling reason for it to be an ability found on the standard power lists or typical monster abilities. Such instant death powers should simply be hinted at by the DM and used as special, for-that-encounter-only special ablities used in encounters with significant build up and warning. I would think that limited space in the PH and MM would be better devoted to powers that will see more frequent use than twice in 15 years.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That was lame? Sounds to me like the kind of climax that would have made the rounds at our table for months. The chase itself can be pretty climactic, and the ending memorable just because it wasn't a protracted one.

You might think that (heck, *I* thought that, which is why I cast the spell to begin with!), but it really didn't work out that way in practice.

A few moments of silence descended on the table. We all looked at each other, and someone said, "That's it?" The GM said, "Yep. He dies." After a few more moments of awkward silence, we agreed that I could take it back, and we replayed from my turn.

A couple dwarves died - some got eaten by the goblins assisting the balrog, some got eaten by the balrog - and a couple made it out; the battle took a lot longer, but it was much more *fun* for all involved.

 

[FourthBear]

But isn't it statistically VERY unlikely to happen all the time, or even frequently?

Considering that save or die powers appear in the lists for wizards, sorcerors, clerics, druids, assassins, psions and many other PC/NPC classes, I don't see why they shouldn't be fairly frequent. They're quite effective encounter enders (if they aren't, they're not very fearful). The do an end-run around ablative combat. At high levels, they certainly outdo any kind of direct damage based powers in 3.5e. Nothing may happen while you wait for a low roll on a save, but when it does happen, they win. And if most enemies are immune to such effects through creature type or Death Ward, it's just nerfing save or die in effect.

 

[Rechan]

For those chanting "options, not restrictions", a question:

Should the Swordsage be in the PHB? How about the other Book of 9 Swords?

After all. The Anime-like material might fit my play style, just like the Save or Die fits yours.

 

[Henry]

Considering that save or die powers appear in the lists for wizards, sorcerors, clerics, druids, assassins, psions and many other PC/NPC classes, I don't see why they shouldn't be fairly frequent.

I'm not speaking frequency of occurrance, I'm talking frequency of actually working. I still have never seen a wizard or cleric prepare all save-or-die spells at a table, usually one or two, because of the failure rate. Now, back in 3.0, before the 3.5 revision, I saw save or die used VERY frequently, and it was actually getting ridiculous, because of the stacking save DCs that allowed players and NPCs to get save DCs for their spells up in the 30's and 40's! (Thanks to greater spell focus, the spell power abilities of archmagi and red wizards, spellcasting prodigy feats, etc.) To be honest, I still haven't seen many save DCs above a 25 until we hit the 18th level and up, and the ability of PCs to boost saves outstripped the ability of characters to boost them.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

But isn't it statistically VERY unlikely to happen all the time, or even frequently?

It depends. I have unfond memories of the numerous insta kill poison bugs from 1st edition. A room full of orcs was no threat, yet a room full of foot long centipedes was a recipe for disaster. It seems kind of odd that a centipede would be more frightening than a hulking barbaric monsrous humanoid who thrives on bloodshed, but that centipede is packing a save or die. In our first edition games, we lost at least one party member per adventure to some manner of physically unimposing bug.