Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Rechan]

How does this handle situations like the Medusa? The medusa is one of the few things that is "Save or Die".

On the one hand, "Flesh to Stone" is reversible.

On the other, I think that an effect that's similar to Escalating Ability damage might work. You know, "Make a save. If you fail, you take 1d4+2 dex damage per round. Your dex hits 0, you turn to stone."

 

[Cadfan]

Doug McCrae- I'm not sure I get your point. You seem to be asking why 4e won't have save-or-die spells, but will have crits, but you're using 3e crits and player points as your comparison.

I believe its been pretty clearly stated that 4e crits will be 2x and won't confirm, and its been hinted through comparison with SWS (I don't know if its been officially confirmed) that first level characters will have higher hit points.

 

[Desdichado]

And liberal is totally the wrong word.

4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action
9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

All of those definitions work quite well with his intended meaning.

Liberal is a perfectly correct word here, actually.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A max damage crit from a 1st level orc does 24 damage. This is enough to drop all but the toughest 1st level PCs to -10hp instantly. If the orc had a greataxe instead of a falchion, a max damage crit would do 48 damage which would even instakill a 2nd level dwarf barbarian with max Con.

Effectively this is exactly the same as save-or-die but with the rolls to hit, confirm crit and damage replacing the saving throw. In both cases a PC can go from perfectly fine to dead immediately without a chance to do anything about it, like run away. And this is the important part because both crits and save-or-dies make player decision making irrelevant, reducing the impact of skill.

Thus Gary's argument against crits in the 1e DMG applies just as much, in fact more so, to save-or-dies.

My point isn't that you shouldn't have crits and SoDs. I happen to like them as they add drama and unpredictability, which I think is worth more than the loss of player skill. BUT I'm saying it doesn't make sense to have one and not the other. You should have both crits and SoDs or neither.

Or a mechanism to negate crits. Action Points?

Its all well and good for the PC wizard to get that 20 and charbroil a bunch of mooks... but AE crits sound like that are going to result in a lot of TPK's. This cant have been ignored in playtesting, so I'm curious to see how it was addressed.

 

[Baby Samurai]

1.) A max damage crit from a 1st level orc does 24 damage. This is enough to drop all but the toughest 1st level PCs to -10hp instantly. If the orc had a greataxe instead of a falchion, a max damage crit would do 48 damage which would even instakill a 2nd level dwarf barbarian with max Con.


2.) The 4e Second Wind power restores hit points so it would work against crits but not SoDs.

1.) Which is another reason why they are getting rid of the "a gnome threw a carrot at you, you die" syndrome.


2.) I thought Second Wind was a Saga thing?

 

[Rechan]

2.) I thought Second Wind was a Saga thing?

Second Wind was also used in the "Tomb under the Tor" playtest. Two characters used it because they were borked.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Second Wind was also used in the "Tomb under the Tor" playtest. Two characters used it because they were borked.

Right on; and it just so happens I introduced the rule to my fortnightly Planescape group at our last session.

 

[Cbas_10]

Liberal is a perfectly correct word here, actually.

I agree; the OP was using the word as originally defined; not as it is commonly used by various people/groups in politics.

Anyway...as a huge skeptic of 4E, my reading here on these forums has opened my eyes to something about 4E that I like. The system of Saves becoming target numbers for the antagonist to roll against. Also, Reflex effectively becomes the old Touch AC. I still have many reservations, but I'm not keeping a closed mind....

Regarding the loss of save-or-die effects...I have no problem with that loss. If the rules were bent to make it impossible for PCs to be killed by various wierdness (such as falling when your flying mount is killed, being crushed by something huge, etc), that would be another story. But the majority of you I agree with. Save-or-die is not quite as fun or exciting. I still use that sort of thing in major climatic events, but the PCs are aware of those possibilities almost 100% of the time (knowing that an artifact is protected by a magical spell, knowing that they will have to cross a treacherous bridge over a chasm leading to the negative energy plane, etc) and can prepare for it.

 

[Presto2112]

The changes to "save or die" don't bother me. I already houseruled "save or die" in such a way that these effects bring a character to -8 hit points, giving a party approximately 12 seconds to save the PC (stabilization will not apply on these effects).

But crits on spells, breath weapons, etc... no. And not because it's a "sacred cow". Dragon breath, for instance, at higher stages in the game, already do enough damage plenty of times to flame-broil a PC, and if that doesn't kill them, the massive damage save just might (are these still going to be in 4e? I haven't been paying attention.) Plus, a basic fighter, particularly a high level one, only had the critical hit available to him to even come close to the damage dealing capability of a spellslinger of congruent level. Now with a critical hit lightning bolt being possible, that skews the scale WAY in the wizard's favor again.

 

[Henry]

First, because it pushes too many buttons on first glance, I altered the thread title.

Second, I wasn't too thrilled with the connotations the thread started out with, but Hobo convinced me with his post to let this stay open. I'll be brief; anyone who attempts to push this back into politics or makes snide political comments will get me swinging the banhammer post-haste.