Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Mallus]

Not quite sure how "liberal" = "soft", but we won't get into that discussion.

Or how "grognard=hard"...

I've only ever seen the soft kind. With beards.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Or how "grognard=hard"...

I've only ever seen the soft kind. With beards.

…and ponytails?

'Worst, edition, ever!'

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I thought you were going to say that 4e would have mixed ethnicity chaotic good paladins wearing rainbow armor and marrying gay druids who are hugging trees. So compared to that, no, I don't think it's becoming too liberal.

I don't like the 'fear of death' in an adventure game by default. You shouldn't motivate PCs with the threat that they might die. You motivate them with the threat that the villain will do something fiendish and hurt a lot of innocent people. The hero can assume he's nigh invincible, but he has to be smarter and tougher than the villain to succeed.

This was often the tension in many of my favourite superhero comics. Yeah, Superman can survive a nuclear bomb, but the real issue is, can he save everyone else from it?

And if you want to inject fear of death into your game, don't rely on 'save or die' spells. That's too trite. Who would be afraid of having your life's candle quickly snuffed when there are warlocks who can bind your will, send you to kill those you love, and then extract your heart with their bare hands, sacrificing your soul to Tharizdun so you will have no afterlife? That's what heroes should be afraid of.

Save or die turns characters into dispensible, replacable avatars in which the player has no investment. Much better to use player investment in their characters as the source of concern.

 

[Doug McCrae]

What makes the game easy or hard is all relative, based on PC power vs monster power. The presence of save-or-die is irrelevant.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Save or die turns characters into dispensible, replacable avatars in which the player has no investment.

Also, I have never wanted a character to be resurrected, I somehow feel like I'm…cheating.

 

[Paraxis]

First..

I thought you were going to say that 4e would have mixed ethnicity chaotic good paladins wearing rainbow armor and marrying gay druids who are hugging trees.

ROFL...thats what I thought the post was going to be about too.

Second..

No I don't think 4E will be taking it easy on players to much, let's look at some of the facts.
>Roll fewer dice for damage and add a number to it then rolling fistfulls of dice, ie Fireball now does 4d6+(3*LVL) or something like that.
>The caster rolls to beat your reflex defense to effect you and on a 20 does double damage.

So 1 in 20 times that blast does (using made up formula from above) 8d6+(LVL*6) thats a huge chance to kill the entire party.

Making a single d20 roll and if it higher then X you are ok, if lower you are dead is not fun.
Taking tons of hit points of damage to die is apparently fun though.

PC's will still die, just how they die will be different.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

And if they take Save or Die out of the game, I'll be happy. (Anyone remember 3.0 HARM?)

I LIKED 3.0 Harm both as a DM and a player.

But I do like the defenses model and allowing more types of attacks to crit and I've already adopted the defenses model in 3e to reduce dice-rolling and speed up play. But one way or another I'll always incorporate save-or-die.

 

[Rechan]

Contrast that with a campaign I just joined as a player. That DM is definitely out to get the PCs and in my 3rd session I died on the first round of combat. Two others were dead in the 2nd round, and the 3 of us sat around for 2 hours watching the last surviving PC struggle to survive the battle. And since it's high enough level that returning from the dead is trivial, I'm planning on rolling up a new PC rather than spending half of another session sitting around waiting to be raised.

So for me, Save or Die and even PC death is not fun - at least when it is easy and common. I don't feel the players need a fear of PC death to have fun or be challenged. And what fear they have doesn't have to be instilled by having insta-death just a die roll away. In fact, I've found that being widdled down in hit points can be more fun and fear-invoking than "they cast a spell and you are dead".

This.

Nothing is so anti-climactic as just pointing at someone and saying "Dead". Just having someone drop dead, PC or NPC, is a Disappointment.

And I can't recall the last book or movie I saw where the badguy just makes one of the heroes drop dead.

Now, I will take the time to differentiate this from a "Save or Get Buggered" spell like Hold Person/Sleep/Charm. Those can at least be Dispelled, and mix up combat a little ("Quick, the Fighter's held; everybody protect him!"). I'd much rather see a change in the situation that makes it Fun, that immediately makes players have to alter their tactics.

Recently the group I was in attacked a priest who saw us coming, so she cast Silence on the door to where she was. It completely borked the entire party, because our mage was too chicken to come in the room, and couldn't cast anything inside. This inevitably resulted in two PC deaths (almost three).

Save or Dies just feel... like the DM just announcing, "Okay, everyone, flip a coin. Heads, you die. Tails you live." What fun.

 

[Rechan]

Also, I have never wanted a character to be resurrected, I somehow feel like I'm…cheating.

Indeed.

Unless I'm really, really in love with the character (or the character is intrical to the current plot), I'd much rather have a new character than just get a Get out of Death Free card.

 

[tf360]

The save or die spells, although dramatic, will not be missed. Having a character's existence come down to a single roll of fate just doesn't jibe well with me. Obviously luck is part of the game, but it should never be the sole determinant factor in a character's life or death. 3.0 did temper down disintegrate, but it left a few other save or die spells unscathed.

I'm more excited though about the saving throws themselves and the departure of touch armor class. The mechanic makes sense and is a lot easier to adjudicate then touch armor class. The article is unclear though in whether a character hit by a touch attack gets a second saving throw to avoid or lessen the spell's effect. I presume that the answer depends upon the spell.