Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Leugren]

A max damage crit from a 1st level orc does 24 damage. This is enough to drop all but the toughest 1st level PCs to -10hp instantly. If the orc had a greataxe instead of a falchion, a max damage crit would do 48 damage which would even instakill a 2nd level dwarf barbarian with max Con.

Effectively this is exactly the same as save-or-die but with the rolls to hit, confirm crit and damage replacing the saving throw. In both cases a PC can go from perfectly fine to dead immediately without a chance to do anything about it, like run away. And this is the important part because both crits and save-or-dies make player decision making irrelevant, reducing the impact of skill.

Thus Gary's argument against crits in the 1e DMG applies just as much, in fact more so, to save-or-dies.

My point isn't that you shouldn't have crits and SoDs. I happen to like them as they add drama and unpredictability, which I think is worth more than the loss of player skill. BUT I'm saying it doesn't make sense to have one and not the other. You should have both crits and SoDs or neither.

However immediate actions change all of this because they bring player decision making back into the equation. The 4e Second Wind power restores hit points so it would work against crits but not SoDs. This would be a good reason to have the former but not the latter.

I doubt that the "new math" being touted for 4E will allow for insta-kills of the sort you describe in your orc example above. To approximate that "mathematical sweet spot" from levels 7 thru 14 in 3E, expect 1st level characters in 4E to have a lot more hit points than they currently do. Star Wars Saga Edition presages this. You can therefore expect critical hits to be a lot less like "save-or-die" effects in 4E. The new math will make critical hits less statistically significant, while still allowing everyone to experience the excitement of a well-placed crit. This is sheer speculation on my part, of course!

 

[Rechan]

In "The Matrix", Cypher unplugs Switch and Apoc on the ship, and they just drop dead, both in and out of the matrix. Does that count?

Switch and Apoc are not main characters - they're Cohorts.

You'd have a point had he unplugged Morpheous.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Switch and Apoc are not main characters - they're Cohorts.

Not cohorts - Red Shirts. Good guys who die to show the main characters how dangerous things are.

 

[Rechan]

Not cohorts - Red Shirts. Good guys who die to show the main characters how dangerous things are.

Yeah.

As opposed to one of the main characters dropping dead to realize how dangerous things are. I think there are more options to alert that "excrement has hit the fan" than "You killed Kenny!"

 

[Irda Ranger]

Not cohorts - Red Shirts. Good guys who die to show the main characters how dangerous things are.

"We have to get out of here before someone kills Guy!"

OT, have you ever seen a dramatic movie where the main character or villain was "just killed." Did Luke just shoot the Emperor in the head and be done with it? No. It was an epic fight. Save-or-die effects are neither dramatic nor fun, as a PC or a DM. Since this is a game, and games are supposed to be fun (like a lot of movies), I'm glad they're gone.

"Easy" has nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure that 1000 HP dragons with all that other crap will not be easy. I'm sure that whatever is in the MM1 that's tougher than the elder Red Wyrm will not be easy.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Save or Die needs to stay. Players often forget that D&D is a game where the players pretty much can do the same things to the bad guys. He Finger of deaths you? Finger him back!

Heres the thing. At high levels, MOOKS are throwing save or die effects. A bodak is a one round speed bump for a 15th level party, yet if it jumps out of some bushes, it forces everyone to pass a DC 15 save or die. The wizard is likely packing around a +10... meaning a still signifcant chance of death from an otherwise meaningless challenge. Compare that to the damage that an 8th level human fighter can hope to deal against a 15th level party (ie, none), and you'll see why its a bit of an issue.

 

[Remathilis]

I used to hear the famous KotDT joke about the killer dungeon.

Player: Ok, I open the door.
GM: Ok. You die.
Player: WHAT?!?
GM: You're Dead, roll up a new PC.
Player: Don't I get a save? I have 54 hp!
GM: NOPE! You're dead. Grab 3d6.
Player: Well, what killed me?
GM: Can't tell you.
Player: What! Why NOT?
GM: Because your NEXT PC might open that door.
Player: ...

I used to laugh about the absurdness of it (the no-save, instant death, didn't even get to see it death) but I'm starting to wonder if there are DMs here that not only would use that, but find it an appropriate challenge in D&D...

 

[KrazyHades]

First, because it pushes too many buttons on first glance, I altered the thread title.

Second, I wasn't too thrilled with the connotations the thread started out with, but Hobo convinced me with his post to let this stay open. I'll be brief; anyone who attempts to push this back into politics or makes snide political comments will get me swinging the banhammer post-haste.

Do banhammers come from the evil version of hammerspace?

Also, I've never liked save or die because it meant that everything relied not only on chance (which is fine; it's all based on random dice rolls) but a single chance which could ruin things for everyone. If one of my players is going to lose a character, I want it to be because the dragon dramatically burns him to a crisp and then tosses him with a leathery wing to smash into the opposite wall of the cavern, not because a bored necromancer tossed a spell and the poor player rolled a one. There's a difference, I think, in the flavor of the two deaths.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I used to laugh about the absurdness of it (the no-save, instant death, didn't even get to see it death) but I'm starting to wonder if there are DMs here that not only would use that, but find it an appropriate challenge in D&D...

Only followed by "just joking, even I'm not that much of an a "
However I do believe save-or-die has a place especially at higher levels.
EXAMPLE: A high level necromancer should have the sort of grip on the forces of life and unlife that let him do exactly that. Snatch the life right out of an opponent with nary a pretty-please or warning.

 

[Rechan]

However I do believe save-or-die has a place especially at higher levels.
EXAMPLE: A high level necromancer should have the sort of grip on the forces of life and unlife that let him do exactly that. Snatch the life right out of an opponent with nary a pretty-please or warning.

What about something like Magic Jar? After all, Necros not only deal with life and death, but the soul. It could just leave a corpse, but snatch the soul up in a box - which could be grabbed away and the soul squirted back into the corpse.

I think it's really appropriate for a Necro to play "Gotch'er soul!"