D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[TheSword]

Those were items from the Adventure Path, and are roughly on par with expected levels of magic items found in other adventure paths and high level adventures.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything, includes a section on Awarding Magic Items. It has numbers that represent the number of items of each rarity that the party should receive in each tier (using the tables in the DMG). Ditto the DMG.

I'm just saying this is the default (lIke saying the default realms are Mystara, Dragonlance, Faerun, Greyhawk etc which match this expectation, and Eberron which exceeds it).

You dont have to award magic items (but then you're left with spell casters teleporting to other dimensions, alterint their form and reality, flying and firing bolts of energy from their faces and so forth).

That’s a 3e AP. A great one, but the magic item systems for 5e and 3e are not even close. I’m currently converting Rise of the Runelords and need to reduce magic items to 20% of that given in print to be close to 5e suggested quantities in Xanathars. From what I remember of AOW I am surprised if it’s dramatically different. As I say, it’s no issue, but let’s pretend sword of flying, broom of flying and boots of flying are normal in a party in 5e.

3e absolutely. But not 5e.

 

[TheSword]

A 17th level Wizard (CRB only) is Doctor Strange or the Scarlet Witch. Probably considerably more powerful than either actually.

As for Defenders level of power? A 3rd level Druid with Wildshape would be a fitting member of the Defenders, able to assume an animal form at will and heal wounds with magic, and summon beasts (let alone the rest of his spell casting).

Again, I'm just saying assuming you're using the Rules (as written), a stock fantasy setting (as written) and the default assumptions of the game.

You could cap HP at 10 for every PC, ban them from advancing past 1st level, and do whatever you want to magic to make it less so. But that's not really the default (as expressed in literally every DnD setting, ever).

Again, you’re obsessing over the question of power. In a comic book, with no frame of reference there is no satisfactory method of comparing power. It’s about style and genre.

 

[Oofta]

Saying "D&D characters are the Avengers" isn't really saying much.

I mean, yes Hawkeye is "just" an archer that can use a bow with a 250 pound draw weight. But other than a magic - erm - technologically advanced arrows and can make any object into a weapon he is basically human.

But then take The Hulk. Hulkster tosses around tanks like they were frisbees. A tank weighs around 60 tons, that's what, 50 times more than even a large PC could lift according to the rules? No PC in D&D is as anywhere near as strong as the Hulk, or Spider-man.

Different genres, different definitions of power, different goals and approaches.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

"Journey to the West" would be the ancestor of wuxia fiction. Wuxia is Asian superheroes because those martial artists can do actions real atlhetes can't.

Action heroes without superpowers are considered superheroes for all purposes if they are in a franchise with superpowers and other characters with superpowers.

They are different levels of power. A street vigilante isn't the same than the cosmic champion who defends Earth against alien invaders or daikaiju monsters.

Psionic manifesters may be one of closest D&D characters to superheroes, but I have said many times d20 system isn't ready for superheroes as ones from Marvel or DC, because the power balance is totally broken easily. And the lore of the superheroes franchises will have to change, because to can publish videogames adapting famous superheores we need the right power balance between victory and failure.

D&D PCs aren't ready to fight against enemies with super-strengh capables of lauching cars with their own hands. Not even D&D giants could defeat Superman, Hulk, Thor or Wonderwoman.

* PCs from shooter videogames could be superheroes if they can survive injuries by bullets and recovering too fast.

 

[CleverNickName]

I think 5th Edition characters start out as super-heroes at 1st level, and become extremely powerful, world-destroying gods by 10th level (compared to other editions, anyway.) They start out Super, and end up being godlike destroyers of worlds by the time they hit the level cap.

Case in point, characters of all classes start out as basically Wolverine or Deadpool, able to automatically heal even the gravest of wounds by sitting still for an hour (sometimes less.) By mid-level, they leave most comic book characters in the dust.

 

[Fanaelialae]

"Journey to the West" would be the ancestor of wuxia fiction. Wuxia is Asian superheroes because those martial artists can do actions real atlhetes can't.

Action heroes without superpowers are considered superheroes for all purposes if they are in a franchise with superpowers and other characters with superpowers.

They are different levels of power. A street vigilante isn't the same than the cosmic champion who defends Earth against alien invaders or daikaiju monsters.

Psionic manifesters may be one of closest D&D characters to superheroes, but I have said many times d20 system isn't ready for superheroes as ones from Marvel or DC, because the power balance is totally broken easily. And the lore of the superheroes franchises will have to change, because to can publish videogames adapting famous superheores we need the right power balance between victory and failure.

D&D PCs aren't ready to fight against enemies with super-strengh capables of lauching cars with their own hands. Not even D&D giants could defeat Superman, Hulk, Thor or Wonderwoman.

* PCs from shooter videogames could be superheroes if they can survive injuries by bulletes and recovering too fast.

As I see it, Wuxia is its own genre, despite there being examples of Wuxia based superheroes in the superhero genre.

Superheroes is an extremely broad genre. You can even find elements borrowed from soap operas. I don't think it is reasonable, however, to suggest that soap opera characters are superheroes.

 

[Flamestrike]

That’s a 3e AP. A great one, but the magic item systems for 5e and 3e are not even close. I’m currently converting Rise of the Runelords and need to reduce magic items to 20% of that given in print to be close to 5e suggested quantities in Xanathars. From what I remember of AOW I am surprised if it’s dramatically different

And I gutted out most magic items. The Swords of Aquaa are from there (which was enabling the Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster flight). The Rod of Nine Parts is in there, the Sphere of Annhilation (and the rod of the sphere) is in there, as is the Hand of Vecna. They're signature magic items from the Adventure. The PCs are also rewarded with magic items of their choice by Mordenkainens Proxy (in addition to Epic boons etc).

The Axe of the Dwarven Lords was treasure I placed in Aceracks Tomb (after buffing it to a 20th level optional adventure).

As I say, it’s no issue, but let’s pretend sword of flying, broom of flying and boots of flying are normal in a party in 5e.

I've already mentioned the Swords, but Winged boots and the Broom arent even Rare - they're both uncommon! The PCs at the end were literally hanging out with Mordenkainen, and going to Toe to Toe with a literal Demi-God (after travelling both the planes of existence; and through time).

Flight isnt a big deal; most classes have some method of Flight literally baked into the class; usually starting in early T2 (all the Spell casters, Paladins, Eagle totem Barbarians, Eldritch knights etc).

Not that it matters, by the time they're in T3, literally most things they encounter can fly as well. Or teleport or whatever.

 

[Flamestrike]

Again, you’re obsessing over the question of power. In a comic book, with no frame of reference there is no satisfactory method of comparing power. It’s about style and genre.

No, I'm not.

Your average 20th level Party of as written core PCs in a standard published setting, using expected magic items from the DMG (roughly 100 'drops' over 20 levels of play according to JC who designed the magic item charts, including over a dozen Legendary items) wind up as teleporting, plane hopping, flying, laser beam flinging, dead raising, kill a T-Rex with their bare hands, go toe to toe with a Demi-God and win bad-asses that could easily hold their own with a band of 'four colour' superheroes akin to the Avengers or the X-Men.

Feel free to change those defaults, but that's the default.

 

[TheSword]

And I gutted out most magic items. The Swords of Aquaa are from there (which was enabling the Swashbuckler/ Battlemaster flight). The Rod of Nine Parts is in there, the Sphere of Annhilation (and the rod of the sphere) is in there, as is the Hand of Vecna. They're signature magic items from the Adventure. The PCs are also rewarded with magic items of their choice by Mordenkainens Proxy (in addition to Epic boons etc).

The Axe of the Dwarven Lords was treasure I placed in Aceracks Tomb (after buffing it to a 20th level optional adventure).



I've already mentioned the Swords, but Winged boots and the Broom arent even Rare - they're both uncommon! The PCs at the end were literally hanging out with Mordenkainen, and going to Toe to Toe with a literal Demi-God (after travelling both the planes of existence; and through time).

Flight isnt a big deal; most classes have some method of Flight literally baked into the class; usually starting in early T2 (all the Spell casters, Paladins, Eagle totem Barbarians, Eldritch knights etc).

Not that it matters, by the time they're in T3, literally most things they encounter can fly as well. Or teleport or whatever.

I don’t dish out items that way. Maybe one character would find a flying item, but then that is because our table doesn’t want a superhero genre game.

Hearing you describe it, reminds me how cool a campaign it is though!

 

[TheSword]

No, I'm not.

Your average 20th level Party of as written core PCs in a standard published setting, using expected magic items from the DMG (roughly 100 'drops' over 20 levels of play according to JC who designed the magic item charts, including over a dozen Legendary items) wind up as teleporting, plane hopping, flying, laser beam flinging, dead raising, kill a T-Rex with their bare hands, go toe to toe with a Demi-God and win bad-asses that could easily hold their own with a band of 'four colour' superheroes akin to the Avengers or the X-Men.

Feel free to change those defaults, but that's the default.

Most of these things are not restricted to superhero games though. Ancient portals, flight, throwing balls of Fire, necromancy, fighting gods were staples of fantasy just as long as they were in the superhero genre. These too were stolen from earlier works.

You’re assuming that my black and white cat is a dog because your dog has a black and white coat. There are several similarities but most of us can tell the difference at a glance.

Fantasy is a separate genre. Though I don’t doubt there are a lot of similarities. I also think the superhero genre draws from a lot of other genres for inspiration. Military fiction, historical fiction, fantasy, science fiction, pulp, mythos, classical history.

The illead doesnt become a superhero genre poem because it includes fighting gods. As much as you wish it would.