D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[Undrave]

I think you might have missed my original point: despite the lack of "fiddly" involved, 0-1-2e didn't have many permanent stat-draining effects at all. Sure, Shadows and Ropers clobbered your Strength but it came back on its own at (I think) a point per hour; and Feeblemind whacked your Intelligence (though Feeblemind's really just a tarted-up version of save-or-die), but not much else did.

Usually, permanent stat drains were just as rare as permanent stat boosts, and often from the same sources.

That is an odd quirk of design indeed.

 

[Minigiant]

And now for a more serious response...
This all makes sense until the very last sentence: DMs play nicer? Or is it that the system tends to want to make them play nicer and to do otherwise requires some arguing with it?

And this only looks at death. In 0-1-2e, and to a lesser extent in 3e, there were all kinds of other things that could ruin a character's day without killing it (some have been listed in earlier posts); most of which have now been either removed outright or nerfed into unrecognizability.

I mean there is less of a standard gauge to understand what will kill a PC. Everyone knows a save or die can kill. We know a PC can take goblin stabs equal to their level or 2-3 fireballs in 2e.

But how many finger of death in 5e? I dunno. So a DM might not use them.

For some reason this makes me laugh.

Is this the version of fancystats for Fantasy D&D (a la Fantasy Football)? "Yeah, this character does well on the stab matrix but he's in the lowest 10% on chops - don't draft him

The hobgoblin commander have a better stab per rest than the giant jarl but has a terrible chops after parry.

Take one as you BBEG3 at best.

 

[Lanefan]

Notice how you consider the casters 'TASTY' morsels?

Well, so much for that joke...

My point is that if you have the key in your pocket (Greater Restoration) then the drain isn't actually more than a temporary hurdle you can just fix by trading in your key. At best you'll have to wait an extra day to get the spell.

You're assuming the party has (Greater) Restoration in the field, which implies a high enough party level to make many things not as threatening as they once were.

However, this does lead to a side point: 5e (and maybe some earlier e's) has made life easier on the PCs in another related way: the costs of casting these spells has dropped dramatically from 1e. That used to be the penalty: you had to pay for the key.

Trivial to add back in.

On another note, I think a good way to model ability drain without the fiddlyness would be a blanket "You get -1/2/3/whatever to all d20 rolls". There, done and done. It's less granualar than 'oh no! My charisma's been drain!" but it ends up more generally impactful.

I've used this idea as a curse before: someone might be -1 on ALL die rolls (for any reason whatsoever, and on each die when rolling in batches) for a while, except when they want to roll low it's +1.

Personally I'd also model the recover on the 4e disease track and allow a gradual lowering of the penalty (or it gets worse if you get hit multiple time) and give the Medecine Skill some use.

This opens the question of whether the drain will go away on its own given enough time and rest (which Medicine could then speed up or enhance) or whether it's truly permanent and cannot be fixed without heavy magic e.g. Greater Restoration, Wish, etc. or divine intervention.

(I should probably point out here I'm not a huge fan of non-magical healing other than by simple rest, though I'm much more sympathetic to the idea of a Medicine skill helping out than I am to what, say, a Warlord does)

 

[Coroc]

Using the core rules as written, 5E is most definitely the easiest in many ways!

...

Not with a 6-8 encounter day and all of them being combats of recommended CR by the book. That is deadly or your encounters are extremely easy or your group is absolutely pro and has tailored classes who work most effectively woith each other or your mobs do not act according to their intelligence or other traits.

While this is not my prefered gameplay because it is hack and slay, personally i do tailor the encounters so many of the mare are a real risk. But this requires much involvement in the stats and experience and a also a portion of "instinct" on how a given encounter might play out and will not work by just picking up the three books and using just what is written therein.

 

[Garthanos]

Stat improvement was rare, but it did occasionally happen; and once UA came out with the percentile-increment idea for Cavaliers it was five minutes work to port that on to every class.

Never used UA and this was nothing approaching a commonality ... that is just reaching I was reacting to just the original phrase of "earning" stat improvement by adventuring remains something dreamed up to justify maiming as a mechanic.

Amazing how you can take one of the absolute best features of old-school D&D - that being fast char-gen - and paint it as a bug.

Best by whose measure? I find Bob1 Bob2 Bob3 the super poorly characters whose only distinctions are randomly determined kind of a bad thing and a natural repercussion of the instant character mechanics.

I can do an almost choiceless 1 click character creation using character builder in 4e and honestly its the same thing ... the character so created lacks player investment and will always be less interesting than where you made choices and thought about it.

I think you might have missed my original point:

Looks like it and I mostly agree but what is the fun in that. Diseases and Feeble mind and a rare monster. I think statted up save or die is a good point though it points out both are the same kettle of smelly fish to me.

 

[Undrave]

This opens the question of whether the drain will go away on its own given enough time and rest (which Medicine could then speed up or enhance) or whether it's truly permanent and cannot be fixed without heavy magic e.g. Greater Restoration, Wish, etc. or divine intervention.

(I should probably point out here I'm not a huge fan of non-magical healing other than by simple rest, though I'm much more sympathetic to the idea of a Medicine skill helping out than I am to what, say, a Warlord does)

I'd say after a long rest you make another saving throw (taking the penalty into account) and depending on what you get you get worse, stay stable, or get better... but getting better would be really hard, especially if you're at -3... and if you go down to bad you just straight up die.

Medecine Skill would then allow you to substitute your Skill Check for the saving throw of the afflicted, giving you a better chance at stability and improvement.

 

[tetrasodium]

Do these parties never do any research or ask any questions about whatever adventure they're contemplating? About what they might be up against? About the history of the place, and who-what might have lived there? About what might be useful and-or required in order to have a better chance of a) surviving and b) success?

If no, they deserve whatever they get.

Or even ask "well.. gee mister mayor we really want to work for you, but it seems like five guys in platemail are an odd choice to clear out the rustmonster nest in your iron mine..."

Heck even "we can take care of your cursed artifact... but your gonna need to put down a bunch up front so we can buy some ghost touch armor * & some potions. Luckily as the king I bet you've been planning this for a while & have some guys who can just make it if they didn't already your majesty"
Yes hose wraiths will put the fear of god in certain builds, but those same builds are going to shrug off the skeleton archers & whatnot putting the feat of god in other builds.

* Yes you could find/buy/make ghost touch armor, but as a +3 enhancement bonus you probably didn't have +3 ghost touch platemail & +3 ghost touch (tower)shield for an ac of nat20 or not my problem so then some stuff pretty far south of things like lich mummy lord & so on are an actual point of consideration.

Lets be honest though, it's a team game & needs a mix of classes. Just having an npc mention wraiths or whatever can make heavy armor types say "hmm maybe I'll wear that ghost touch splint we found instead of my +3 adamantine plate of invulnerability". A team of all arcane casters will get mutilated by skeleton archers too spread out for fireball & die the second their spell slots run out if they even make it that far.

Also why is this GM throwing the wraith temple at this party of 7 plate wearing fighters?

 

[Garthanos]

Do these parties never do any research or ask any questions about whatever adventure they're contemplating?

Maybe they do and Do all those dead guys before them tell tales so they have all the information about which kind of instant deaths they face? is it save or die or just you took a bunch of hit points both have the same kind of story. Generally I do not presume anything approaching perfect information and recognize most of that information is under a DM umbrella.

 

[tetrasodium]

Maybe they do and Do all those dead guys before them tell tales so they have all the information about which kind of instant deaths they face? is it save or die or just you took a bunch of hit points both have the same kind of story. Generally I do not presume anything approaching perfect information and recognize most of that information is under a DM umbrella.

In hat situation, maybe the GM threw in that wraith with the necromancer & three skeleton archers so the necromancer could $plotReasons while the plate wearing guy is terrified of the wraith tearing him apart & squishies are trying to nova the skeletons down before they go down themselves? Sure the dex tank rogue/ranger could tank the wraith, but alone he can't slaughter the necromancer fast enough to entirely stop $plotEvents.

After all, how could the last party report back the wraith that used to be their fighter or the fact that their $otherClasses are being sacrificed to complete the necromancer's lich ritual just as tthe players arrive to an encounter that challenges them each with the fear of god but probably won't kill them in irreversible ways?... of course that's opposed to now where they can faceroll the entire thing unless the necromancer has 400 zombies or a goodly number of things like revenants ?

 

[Garthanos]

In hat situation, maybe the GM threw in that wraith with the necromancer & three skeleton archers so the necromancer could $plotReasons

One plot line I like and its sometimes called the McGuffin basically you have an unbeatable scenario or adversary and you need to acquire something special to overcome it. As a DM you convey the unbeatable-ness to the group (one way is to have them fight something difficult then have them discover that the adversary they are now up against took out the hard to beat enemy trivially), Another is just never present it as anything but a need for the McGuffin by the game world.