Is a '1' an auto-failure for saving throws?

[IceBear]

I just don't get responses like Greathouse's. A natural 1 has been an automatic failure and a natural 20 an autosuccess since 1E. Everyone played that way (unless they used a house rule), and all the designers have stated it is the same way in 3E. Even the upcoming Deities and Demigods assume that it works this way, so why do people say - "I'm not going to use that rule until there is errata?"

I truly don't think that some things - like this and are shield's armor - are ever going to see errata. For one, I don't know how much effort WotC are going to put into making new "offical" errata for a book that already has offical errata. Second, they have set up Skip as the de facto errata writer, so if he provides an answer in Sage's Advice (that then goes to the DNDFAQ) they seem to treat that as gospel.

To me, while this rule is not explicitedly stated within the core rules, it is offical.

IceBear

 

[Westwind]

Skills...

AFAIK skill rolls do NOT fail or succeed on 1s and 20s, but correct me if I`m wrong. (little off topic, but all this "always 1 and 20" talk spurred me to post)

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Skills...

AFAIK skill rolls do NOT fail or succeed on 1s and 20s, but correct me if I`m wrong. (little off topic, but all this "always 1 and 20" talk spurred me to post)

You're not wrong.

 

[Gromm]

Automatic success and failure (on a 20 and 1, respectively) for saving throws, is not in the core rule anywhere.

The rule is in there for attack rolls, and your equipment is at risk if you roll a "1" on a save.

The automatic success and failure rule is in the first Dragon on 3e, I think, and definitely in the FAQ. In both cases IIRC, it is simply stated as fact with no acknowledgment of the fact that it is not published in the rules.

PHB p.123
"Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit."

I have to get to work so I can't find the one for saves. (Also look in the glossary under automatic hit and miss)

 

[Artoomis]

PHB p.123
"Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on the attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit."

I have to get to work so I can't find the one for saves.

That's 'cause it does not exist. As has been previously stated, you'll not find it in the published rules or errata, though it is in the FAQ. Also, it is implied (well, weakly) in that you may lose items on a Save result of a natural 1.

 

[Gromm]

That's 'cause it does not exist. As has been previously stated, you'll not find it in the published rules or errata, though it is in the FAQ. Also, it is implied (well, weakly) in that you may lose items on a Save result of a natural 1.

I'm inclined to agree, its not be found anywhere - save in the item damage section in magic.
Its been effectively changed by previous erratas and the FAQ, but the actual books fail to have the one sentence (or even few words) that spell it out.

The strange part is that I swore I saw it, because when I first got the game I didn't think thats the way it was. For the life of me I can't find it though, so I must have been mistaken.

 

[twjensen]

SRD

From the SRD:

A saving throw roll is:

d20 + Base save bonus + other modifiers due to equipment, active effects, environment, circumstance, etc. + ability modifier vs. DC of Save

The Saving Throw succeeds if the total of the die roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the DC.

*******************

That's it. It goes on to talk about the three different kinds of saves and what they save against. 1 has been failure and 20 success on saves for so long in D&D that I figure it's pretty dang official. OTOH, apparently the door is open in 3e for saves to not auto-fail.

1 fails on attack, 20 hits on attack is still in there though.

 

[Gromm]

I can't even find it in the FAQ myself.
So far I have no references to a 1 being an auto fail save or a 20 an auto success.
0.
I searched the FAQ manually and then used a search for natural 20 which turned up a ruling on attacks hitting on 20s and missing on 1's. It even mentioned skill checks and how they didn't apply, but it never said that saves DID apply to the rule.

Other than the Dieties and Demigods reference, I don't see it anywhere in the books (though I haven't gone through the class books or anything crazy like that yet).

 

[melkoriii]

Auto Success/Fail for saves is not core. No were dose it say it is.

All this “Yes it is” Comes from word of mouth and “That’s how it was in 1st / 2nd Ed” which we all know how much things have changed compared to them.

“d20 + Base save bonus + other modifiers due to equipment, active effects, environment, circumstance, etc. + ability modifier vs. DC of Save”

Is exactly how you do saves.

 

[kreynolds]

I can't even find it in the FAQ myself.
So far I have no references to a 1 being an auto fail save or a 20 an auto success.
0.
I searched the FAQ manually and then used a search for natural 20 which turned up a ruling on attacks hitting on 20s and missing on 1's. It even mentioned skill checks and how they didn't apply, but it never said that saves DID apply to the rule.

Other than the Dieties and Demigods reference, I don't see it anywhere in the books (though I haven't gone through the class books or anything crazy like that yet).

It's in the FAQ. You're just missing it. Here ya' go:

Is a natural “20” always a hit and natural “1” always a
miss when using weapons? Is a natural “20” always a
success and natural “1” always a failure when rolling a
saving throw? Is a natural “20”always a success and
natural “1” always a failure when rolling an ability
check or a skill check?
On an attack roll or a saving throw, a roll of “20” on the
die is always a success and a roll of “1” is always a
failure. This represents the inherently chancy nature of
combat; it has innumerable variables that are completely
beyond the acting character’s control. In the case of attack
rolls, common sense must prevail. A roll of “20” cannot
produce a hit when a hit is not possible. (For example: It
won’t hit when a target is beyond the attacker’s melee
reach or beyond a ranged attack’s maximum range.)
Some circumstances always produce a hit or a miss no
matter what the attack roll is. For example, an attack
against a concealed target has a flat chance to produce an
automatic miss (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook),
no matter what the attack roll is. Likewise if you’re using
the coup de grace rule or take a full round to line up a
melee attack on an unattended object, you always hit.
Saving throws are similar to attack rolls in that there’s
always a little something beyond the character’s control.
Like combat, there are cases where the roll is irrelevant,
even if it’s a “1” or “20.” Creatures that are immune to an
attack never have to roll saving throws against that
attack. Likewise, if a spell or attack form doesn’t allow a
saving throw in the first place, you can’t roll a saving
throw and hope to get a “20.”
Skill checks are not subject to automatic success or
failure. Some tasks are just too easy for failure or too hard
for success. (Most people don’t fail once on every 20
attempts to tie their shoes.) Ability checks are likewise
not subject to automatic failure or success. (No matter
how lucky you are, you’re just not going to kick down a
castle wall.) If the DM feels that chance might affect the
outcome, a saving throw or attack roll is probably more
appropriate.

There it is. Black and white. If that isn't clear, see a doctor. Just pokin' around. Also, sorry about the crappy format. I just ripped it right from the FAQ.