Is a popular non-D&D traditional fantasy RPG possible?

[Staffan]

The problem I see is a chicken/egg thing, mostly.

In order to make a game that could seriously compete with D&D, you need a lot of money. I mean, sure, maybe you have a kickass idea for a game with a great mechanic, but you need to pay artists, layout people, get it printed with decent quality, do marketing, and so on, and in order to give the game the ongoing support it needs you need to pay other people to design supplements.

In order to get that kind of money, you already have to be successful, along the lines of White Wolf. If you already have a successful product line, why would you want to start another to compete with D&D?

I think the closest we've seen to a serious D&D competitor recently is Exalted, and while it's definitely fantasy I wouldn't call it "traditional". I also have a feeling that the second edition of the game wasn't as successful as WW would have wanted, but that's mostly guesswork based on the rather slow release schedule for the game.

 

[Maggan]

Many products such as Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed, Iron Kingdoms, Pathfinder, Warhammer Fantasy, Runequest show that it is not just about marketing but quality of product. If something with enough overall quality comes in the market it will succeed.

Yes. But not on the level of D&D, which is my point. Those games are well designed, high quality offerings. I play WFRP and Iron Kingdoms myself. But they clearly show that having good design, even stellar design, is not enough to challenge D&D, on the level that has been proposed in this thread.

These games can be or are already successful in their own rights, but none of them have challenged D&D. None, in spite of great design and mechanics. So no, having enough overall quality is not a guarantee for success, on any level. Unfortunately.

It's a good start, I'll agree to that.

/M

 

[xechnao]

Yes. But not on the level of D&D, which is my point. Those games are well designed, high quality offerings. I play WFRP and Iron Kingdoms myself. But they clearly show that having good design, even stellar design, is not enough to challenge D&D, on the level that has been proposed in this thread.

These games can be or are already successful in their own rights, but none of them have challenged D&D. None, in spite of great design and mechanics. So no, having enough overall quality is not a guarantee for success, on any level. Unfortunately.

It's a good start, I'll agree to that.

/M

Let me rephrase my point to meet your argument. These games have not surpassed D&D because they did not manage to offer enough more value than the D&D game. They may not be inferior, perhaps a bit superior in some ideas but not that much to recover the starting advantage of D&D in the commercial race we are talking about. It is a question of measure of the "enough" adjective we are talking about. Enough overall quality is a guarantee but nobody has achieved the necessaary measure of "enough" so far to succeed in toping D&D.

 

[Maggan]

Enough overall quality is a guarantee but nobody has achieved the necessaary measure of "enough" so far to succeed in toping D&D.

I think we won't agree on that. In my opinion you're setting the "good enough" bar so high that to clear that hurdle, a game would have to be so well designed as to automatically attract legions of gamers and turn them from D&D just through sheer brilliance. The game design has to be so riveting that it became a news item in itself, much like D&D was in the 80s. It must do everything that D&D does, and do it better, and probably do a lot of other stuff as well.

I can't even imagine what that game would be like, and still be a "traditional fantasy roleplaying game".

I hope someday, someone will show me.

/M

 

[MichaelSomething]

Let me rephrase my point to meet your argument. These games have not surpassed D&D because they did not manage to offer enough more value than the D&D game. They may not be inferior, perhaps a bit superior in some ideas but not that much to recover the starting advantage of D&D in the commercial race we are talking about. It is a question of measure of the "enough" adjective we are talking about. Enough overall quality is a guarantee but nobody has achieved the necessaary measure of "enough" so far to succeed in toping D&D.

Assuming a system that is better then D&D in every single way is the only requirement to dethrone it, how you create said system? Where are you gonna find the talent to make it? Point to a person/group with the skills experience, and the smarts who can make a mircale system. Where are you gonna find said person/group? How are you gonna fund this venture? WOTC spend at least one million dollars developing 4th edition. Don't forget playtesting at well. How are you gonna handle playtesting?

It's not like someone can just make a mircale RPG system overnight in his basement. You also can't count on some crazy rich person going "Hey, I should spend millions of dollars to make an RPG game and compete with D&D!"

 

[xechnao]

It's not like someone can just make a mircale RPG system overnight in his basement.

Not overnight. Perhaps a thousand of nights. But who knows what every geek is doing with his nights.

You also can't count on some crazy rich person going "Hey, I should spend millions of dollars to make an RPG game and compete with D&D!"

Yeah, to this I agree with.

 

[xechnao]

I hope someday, someone will show me.

Me too.

 

[Staffan]

Not overnight. Perhaps a thousand of nights. But who knows what every geek is doing with his nights.

I don't think we have that smiley here.

 

[xechnao]

I don't think we have that smiley here.

You got me hooked. What would that be?

 

[Turanil]

I am sorry to ruin your perfect score of 100% things to hate about D&D, but no Dennis is to be found among the artists, as far as I could see.

The covers are by Wayne Reynolds.

/M

Well, it's a mistake on my part (because the credit section in a 3.0 splatbook said "Dennis Cramer" for the same style art with the "WAR" signature). So, it's this same artist whose style I dislike. Now, he is very prolific and must work fast, seeing all the illustrations he produced.