Celebrim said:
But, for the life of me I can't see how the article and your pet theory on alignment have anything to do with anything. I'm glad you found the article stimulating, but if anything, all it proves is that one of the biggest problems with the law/chaos axis is that its not well defined and has been inconsistantly defined and so almost everyone has thier own theory about what it means. I don't buy your definition, I don't think that you really can support that definition of the law/chaos axis if that's what you are trying to push, but have fun with it.
No, I don't think it clearly fits the alignment system as written. But I do think it suggests that what differentiates many moral responses is not an emotionless intellectual evaluation of the facts but the emotional response related to empathy. I think it is no mistake that one of the defining characteristics of a sociopath is a lack of empathy, not a low IQ.
Celebrim said:
It doesn't matter. The average person will I think still emotionally attach greater value to the one he chooses as intellectually superior, including 'none'. It won't always happen. You may be an outlying point, in the same way that your researchers only were able to predict the subjects action 70% of the time.
Unless you have any data to support that, your argument seems to be simply begging the question.
Celebrim said:
That isn't what I said is it? You continue this misunderstanding all through the response. What I said is that people played characters that were either very like themselves in some way, or else that they played characters that were very unlike themselves in some way.
I forgot to put the opposite in my example. But, yes, I got that.
Celebrim said:
They didn't tend to play tangental characters, and usually didn't even occur to them that such existed.
And my anecdotal experience includes a lot of people who do play tangental characters. At least half the people in my regular group do this.
Celebrim said:
I've played characters I disliked, characters with a moral outlook radically different than my own, and just about every character I ever played has done things which are not in thier own best interests. But looking back over my own characters, even before I realized it, the characters I invested in emotionally essentially had two archetypes. And that's been true of every player I've ever met, even though their archetypes were often radically different than mine. Either they are playing a surrogate self, or they are playing a disposable self which they can safely do things that they would not do so that they can explore what it might be like, or they played both.
Yes, I've role-played with people like that. There are certainly role-players with one or two archetypes that they almost always play. And I'll even agree that some were likely doing exactly what you describe. But I've also played with plenty of role-players who don't always play characters like that. What's normal? Unless you've played with tens of thousands of people, I'm not sure that either of us has role-played with a large enough sample size.
Celebrim said:
The either primarily identified and created big exaggerated versions of themselves, or they primarily fantisied and did escapsist stuff which they'd never do in real life. A complex role player probably can and does mix and match a little in the same character, but I've yet to meet one that plays the not-self who is not informed by thier inner self.
So you've never met anyone who can play characters outside of a fairly narrow range of mindsets? I know of at least two approaches to playing a character that can produce those results.
I also know of at least one reason why some people who can probably don't. Many people have the same expectation that you do -- that a character provides some sort of window into the players psyche. It's kinda difficult to play a coldly ruthless sadist when you aren't if the person sitting across the table from you is going to assume that your character shows that you are really a coldly ruthless sadist inside. In fact, I tend to play characters that "get along" when I play with new groups simply to avoid player/character confusion, which is perhaps why your assumption that character choices are predictive of a player's psyche bothers me so much.
Celebrim said:
And I answered the abstract question of who would do the better job making trains run on time. Ultimately, it would not be the Nazi's. In 1945, the trains did not run on time. In fact, they'd had problems running on time for a while. In just 10 years or so, the Nazi's completely flubbed up maybe the best rail system in the world. That took serious ineptitude. No, that took beyond ineptitude. That took evil. So ultimately, you can't separate the two. You take Nazi's for train schedulers and pretty soon your rolling stock is wasting time on shipping out tanks and human chattel.
When they needed to pick someone to help put an American on the moon, did they pick someone who used slave labor to build rockets for the Nazis or a Nun? Or are you going to tell me about how inept and inefficient their rocket and jet engine programs were, too? Yes, there were plenty of problems there, too. But that didn't stop the Nazis from doing some things quite well, from making beautiful propaganda movies that are still considered influential today to building the first Volkswagen.
Celebrim said:
I think that it is self-evident that they are the same thing. If a theory is intellectually superior to another, it is intellectually superior because it is correct. If it is correct, then it is also moral, and hense morally superior. To imagine the opposite, that a position could be intellectually superior, but incorrect implies a contridiction.
What do you mean by "correct"?
Celebrim said:
If the position was the incorrect one, the intellectually superior position would then be to recognize its incorrectness, and then to adopt the correct position.
You seem to be assuming that the morally correct position can be intellectually derived. I do not. And I think the evidence presented in that article as well as the behavior of sociopaths and shortcomings of utilitiaranism and moral relativism suggests that a position derived entirely from intellectual reasoning is often quite morally wrong because the factors that make one moral or immoral (in a Good or Evil sense) are not entirely rational.
Celebrim said:
And if the position was immoral, it could not also be correct since that would imply that it is right to do what is wrong.
Depending on the objective, the correct solution can be the immoral solution. You seem to want to argue that either the fact that the solution is correct automatically makes it moral or the fact that it is immoral automatically makes it incorrect. I disagree, because the factor that makes a course of action moral or immoral may have nothing to do with the reason why an action is correct or incorrect. If this were not the case, we would not have any moral dilemmas because the correct solution would always agree with the moral solution.
Celebrim said:
And if no position was intellectually superior, then that would imply that there was no such thing as right or wrong - but then that wouldn't save you either because then the intellectually superior and correct position would be that there is no right and wrong (itself a moral position). Which ever way you go, the intellectually superior position is the morally superior position.
Claiming that no position is intellectually superior does not imply that there is no such thing as right and wrong. It may simply mean that right and wrong cannot be intellectually derived. There are plenty of examples of people who justify acts on sound utilitarian grounds who are still considered immoral. Why? Because an intellectual utilitarian assessment of the situation is not the only basis upon which people make moral decisions, nor it is even the primary basis.
Celebrim said:
Don't assume I can't imagine people thinking differently. That's what role players do. What I can't do (and maybe you are exceptional and can) is invest an emotional stake in something like that. Or to put another way, I could DM the character, but I'd never choose to PC such a character because it would bore me in the long term.
I know other people who can or do. I'll agree that I personally find it difficult to climb into the head of someone that I really don't like, but (A) I've done it for long games to understand the mindset and (B) not everyone plays characters over a long term in this hobby. Long campaigns are common but that's not the only way people play.
Celebrim said:
First, I think its reasonable to say that the Japanese are a very moral people.
I think that's a very simplistic analysis of the Japanese. That's about all I can say without going into details that are sure to offend someone.
Celebrim said:
Which isn't unexpected either, since I would expect the single most popular alignment to be 'alignment doesn't really have any meaning', or what I've refered to elsewhere as 'neutral apathetic'.
You are assuming that the answer "None" means "alignment doesn't really have any meaning" or implies apathy. I don't think that several of the detailed responses say anything like that. Of course you can simply dismiss them as outliers or claim they are hiding their true feelings, but at what point are you really looking at the data and at what point are you simply forcing the data to fit your theory?
Celebrim said:
I didn't say anything about automatic. I am speaking in tendencies and trends, and I still claim that analogies to moral ideologies are inadequate. Maybe an admiration for Aztec art doesn't mean anything because your average Aztec art peice wouldn't tread on anyone's sensibilities, but eventually I could find some peices that would tread on that revulsion center you place so much value in - and if you don't believe that you haven't seen enough Aztec art.
And that some people can appreciate the Aztec art despite the fact that it treads on their emotional sensiblities and makes them feel revulsion is a triumph of intellect over emotion. Intellectually, the art is harmless and what it depicts is simply a representation. It's only through an emotional investment in what is being depicted and empathy for the victims being depicted that we feel any revulsion at all. Revulsion is not an intellectual response. It's an emotional response. Divested of an emotional response, Aztec art is technically superior to plenty of other art. To me, this is what seems self-evident.
Celebrim said:
What the responce was then would probably say something about peoples moral valuations, but I doubt that they would be particular authentic and interesting observations unless the person wasn't aware that they were being observed.
Given that the same response can have many causes, I don't think that the response alone predicts anything.
Celebrim said:
I think that's interesting, but I don't think it necessarily follows. I think you've got an interesting theory there, but I think you are failing to recognize the limitations of basing mythic first causes on derived things.
Given how much of your argument is based on anecdotal evidence, simple assertion, and claims of self-evidence, I'm not really sure what you are expecting here.
Celebrim said:
Proved, no. That requires a more sophisticated understanding than is possible for someone that lives only in the present. That good is superior on utilitarian grounds is something that I take as a reasonable assumption from the available evidence, even if it doesn't pass the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' test required for proof.
And if someone doesn't believe that Good is superior on utilitarian grounds but still believes that Good is superior, how does that fit into your theory?
Celebrim said:
Sure, I've run evil characters as a GM. But that's different. The pattern you give is pretty typical. You probably strongly self-identify as good, so you don't want to play evil. But you do want to play characters that can struggle with the challenge of being good, and who walk the line closer than you'd ever dare in real life.
Is your claim that it's "typical" for people to run their own alignment or it's opposite or that its "typical" for people to explore the boundaries of their own alignment? The insight that Good people often don't enjoy playing Evil charactrers isn't all that profound.
Also note that I've played characters to explore other people's psyches and have had to psychoanalyze my own characters to understand what they were doing and feeling. It's not a matter of exploring boundaries so much as doing something to see how it plays out -- to see what sort of decisions a particular mindset or set of priorities produces. That I avoid Evil characters has little to do with my conscious self-identification and everything to do with that gut feeling of revulsion at what the characters are doing. I don't want to spend too much time with a character I don't like any more than I'd want to spend too much time with a real person that I don't like. But that doesn't mean that I can't climb inside of an Evil mind and do an effective job of playing it.
Celebrim said:
I had a friend who self-identified as good that felt so uncomfortable with that, that he never played non-nuetral (though he could DM bad guys just fine). I had another friend that played only lawful goods and chaotic neutrals. I've seen that axis ALOT, and I tend that way myself.
And I don't think I've ever seen that axis, which is why I don't place a lot of weigh on anecdotal evidence like this. Yes, I agree with the basic premise of your argument, which is that you can learn something about people from the characters they play and the alignments they pick but I don't think it falls into any single pattern. And once there are multiple reasons why people might make the same choices about characters or alignment, the ability to draw conclusions about a person from their choice is limited, if not non-existent. Your insights are certainly interesting but I think it's a stretch to make too many assumptions based on limited data like the responses to this question.
Celebrim said:
(That's one of the reason's I don't trust my self-identification. I think I'm probably flattering myself when I self-identify as NG, and that I'm probably really LG.) On the other hand, have you ever played with groups in which the players self-identify as evil and who never play good characters? I've been in three. Their LN's aren't flirting with the idea of evil, but with the idea of good.
I've never played with a group that self-identified as Evil. And I'm not sure that I'd want to.