D&D 3E/3.5 Is Briar Web a 2nd level spell in 3.5e?

[Nail]

Last night, my precious goblins (I DM) were ambushed by a dastardly druid PC casting Briar Web (from MotW). In an instant, practically all my poor, defenseless goblins, both seen and unseen, were rendered helpless. Not only were they entangled, but if they moved, took any action at all, they would take damage and die, no save.

I admit I had only looked over the spell in passing. But now that I look at it: 40' radius spread, automatic damage each round, only half move even with a successful save, etc. ....wow, is this not a second level spell. (No Ref save to avoid damage?!!)

What do you think?

We're playing with 3.5e, but continuing to use the old splat-books. Yes, I know they haven't been updated to 3.5e.

Here is the spell:

Briar Web
Transmutation
Level: Drd 2, Rgr 2
Components: V, S, DE
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees to grow thorns and then wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area, holding them fast. Creatures that stand still are entangled but experience no other effects and take no damage. A creature attempting an action (attack, cast a spell with a somatic component, move, or the like) takes thorn damage of ld4 points +1 additional point per caster level and must make a successful Reflex save or be entangled (-2 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty to effective Dexterity, and unable to move). Anyone trying to cast a spell within the area must also make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level + damage taken) or lose the spell.

An entangled creature can try to break free and move at half normal speed by using a full-round action to make a Strength check or Escape Artist check (DC 20). A non-entangled creature can move through the area at half speed, taking damage as described above. Each round non-entangled creatures remain in the area, the plants attempt to entangle them.

The plants provide one-quarter cover for every 5 feet of substance between a creature in the area and an opponent- one-half for 10 feet of briar web, three-quarters for 15 feet, and total cover for 20 feet or more.

The DM may alter the effects of the spell somewhat, based on the nature of the available plants.

 

[Rel]

I can't answer the factual question you pose (whether Briar Web is a 2nd level spell under 3.5) and I'm not sure anyone can unless it has been incorporated into the 3.5 PHB.

I will say as the DM of a Druid who made somewhat frequent use of this spell, that for low level creatures without a lot of hit points, it's best to "lie back, think of England and wait for the spell duration to end". Unless you have a good chance of making the Str or Escape Artist check, and also have the hit points to take the damage for a few rounds, you are better off to just wait it out.

I think the big balancing factor for this spell is that it doesn't work much at all in dungeon or urban environments. If most of your campaign takes place outdoors, maybe you need to think about some alternative ruling on this spell.

 

[Gina]

I was the druid who cast the spell....

I agree that it is a pretty powerful spell, but it is totally useless unless you are outside which is a balancing factor in my mind.

I can see giving a reflex save for half damage since a clever creature might logically be able to twist and avoid some of the thorns.

Of course, my vested interest is that it kept the goblins from killing us all and scared some of the others off.

Rowan (who managed not to catch any party members in the spell this time!)

 

[Darklone]

The spell follows the spike stone spell of the druid list... but has an additional entangle effect and the same damage IMHO. Too strong. As a fourth level spell I would think about it.

 

[DrSpunj]

Don't agree with that, Darklone

The spell follows the spike stone spell of the druid list... but has an additional entangle effect and the same damage IMHO. Too strong. As a fourth level spell I would think about it.

Since Spike Stones is a 4th level spell and is far better, IMO, I'd have to disagree with you. Here's the 3.5 SRD version:

Spike Stones
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Drd 4, Earth 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One 20-ft. square/level
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

Rocky ground, stone floors, and similar surfaces shape themselves into long, sharp points that blend into the background. Spike stones impede progress through an area and deal damage. Any creature moving on foot into or through the spell’s area moves at half speed. In addition, each creature moving through the area takes 1d8 points of piercing damage for each 5 feet of movement through the spiked area. Any creature that takes damage from this spell must also succeed on a Reflex save to avoid injuries to its feet and legs. A failed save causes the creature’s speed to be reduced to half normal for 24 hours or until the injured creature receives a cure spell (which also restores lost hit points). Another character can remove the penalty by taking 10 minutes to dress the injuries and succeeding on a Heal check against the spell’s save DC.

So a Druid that could cast Spike Stones would be 7th level at minimum (with a minimum Wisdom of 14). Here's Briar Web as a 4th level spell compared for this Druid.

Breaking it down the Components, Casting Time and Range are the same. The Area for Briar Web is static and actually slightly bigger than the seven 20' squares our caster gets with Spike Stones, but the caster has a lot of flexibility with the area which I think makes Spike Stones quite a bit better. They both carry the same limitation of only being useful/castable in specific environments. Duration goes to Spike Stones with 7 hrs vs Briar Web's 7 minutes. Briar Web gets a point for not being affected by Spell Resistance, while Spike Stones may not penetrate SR. Just looking at the basic parameters Spike Stones comes out ahead, if not by a lot.

Effect-wise I can't see how they come out anywhere near equal.

Briar Web automatically entangles anyone who stands there (without doing damage), and causes 1d4+1/lvl for each attempted action plus a Reflex save to avoid being entangled. Movement is reduced by half. Max that's 11 points of damage per round.

Spike Stones similarly reduces all movement by half but does 1d8 per 5' of movement and any damage done forces a Reflex save or your movement speed is reduced by half (essentially to 1/4 in the spell area). That condition lasts for the at least the entire combat unless you have a Cure handy to remove it (after all, your buddies with the Cure spells aren't much help when you have to spend multiple rounds getting out of the spell's area of effect to reach them, taking 1d8 damage for each 5'!).

Briar Web is powerful, but doesn't come any where near this 4th level spell power-wise.

Is it too powerful for a 2nd level spell? I don't know. I think a lot of that depends on whether you think Entangle is overpowered as a 1st level spell. Comparing it to Web is pretty easy, but I haven't done that yet and don't have time right now. I want to look at some other 2nd and 3rd level spells before I put in my vote.

BTW, I'm another player in this group. I think Entangle would've done just as a good a job last night since any that failed their Reflex saves and got Entangled would've essentially been out of the fight just as surely as those affected by the Briar Web. With Briar Web Nail couldn't have them do anything or they would've died, but an effective -4 on their ranged attacks (since them breaking out of the entangle effect is very unlikely with such high DCs) would've nullified 90% of their attacks. The battle would not have been significantly changed if a few them shot a couple arrows or managed to break out of the spell's area and engage our party. His one "sergeant" goblin caught in the area of the Briar Web was on the edge and managed to escape on his next turn.

DrSpunj

 

[Nifft]

To 3.5e-ize it, have it only scale in duration -- have the spell deal up to 1d4 points of piercing damage to any critter trying to wade through it. It's still one up from Entangle, but it's no longer better than higher level spells.

-- N

 

[Speaks With Stone]

As the Druid in Rel's game, it was somewhat embarrasing when he had my druid caught within a Briar Web. But I just laid down and took a nap. I knew I wasn't strong enough to get out and I'd get destroyed. I had full cover being at the center of effect. When the spell wore off I got up and kept going.

Later I got caught in anther one and I burrowed out, but that was a more desperate situation. Briar Web is a great spell and much like entangle - potent for the level, but only usable in certain situations.

Underground, webbed by kobolds being another fun highlight of my druid's career. It seems I've spent as much time entangled as I have entangling others so it all seems fair in a certain twisted sort of way.

 

[DrSpunj]

What does Briar Web at 2nd level gain over Entangle at 1st level? Here's Entangle from the SRD:

Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Plant 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a
Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement.
Note: The effects of the spell may be altered somewhat, based on the nature of the entangling plants.

So Briar Web has a Medium range instead of Long, but otherwise has the same basics. As far as spell effects, Briar Web does an automatic 1d4+1/lvl damage each round to any creature attempting an action. Briar Web also has the text about providing Cover (so those affected that choose to avoid damage by standing still aren't likely to be hit with most ranged attacks either).

So Briar Web is significantly better than Entangle, but I think the improvements are logical. Targets are given the choice to stay put and remain unharmed or fight the thorns, take automatic damage from doing so and potentially be able to get out of the area of effect.

Let's also compare Briar Web to Web, arguably a much fairer comparison since Web is also a 2nd level spell. Here's the SRD version:

Web
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Webs in a 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Web creates a many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands. These strands trap those caught in them. The strands are similar to spider webs but far larger and tougher. These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears. Creatures caught within a web become entangled among the gluey fibers. Attacking a creature in a web won’t cause you to become entangled.
Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal for being entangled (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20
Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5
points by which the check result exceeds 10.
If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.
The strands of a web spell are flammable. A magic flaming sword can slash them away as easily as a hand brushes away cobwebs. Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round. All creatures within flaming webs take 2d4 points of fire damage from the flames.
Web can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent web that is damaged (but not destroyed) regrows in 10 minutes.
Material Component: A bit of spider web.

So Briar Web has double the radius of Web, but only lasts 1/10 as long. Web can be cast usefully most anywhere, while Briar Web is restricted to vegetative areas.

Effect-wise Web always entangles a creature while a successful Reflex save avoids entangling in a Briar Web, instead it deals the 1d4+1/lvl damage. Web only deals damage with the addition of fire, and doing so ends the entangling effect since the square is cleared.

Both similarly force checks to break the entangle effect (though the Escape Artist check is 5 higher for Web), reduce movement (it's a bit harder to move through a Web, but the smaller area means you're probably out sooner) and provide cover.

So, is Briar Web out of line for a 2nd level Druid spell? Well, looking at the rDMG Guidelines for Creating New Spells on pgs. 35-36, maybe not. They aren't much, but they do point out a few things:

• Spells of limited use (like must be cast in a vegetative area) can be more powerful than others of their level
• Druids are best at spells dealing with plants & animals (duh!)
• It's not overly offensive, flashy or dramatic (since each target can choose to stay put without taking ANY damage; yes it takes them effectively out of the fight and restricts movement, but those are defensive effects) so there's no reason it shuts out the Sorcerer or Wizard
• Max damage for a Divine spell affecting multiple targets is a single die (that could be up to a d8)

After all this, I guess I would slightly revise it, but not to any degree that would have affected our game last night. I think the 1d4 damage is fine, but I think the +1/lvl damage should either have a cap (like max +5 similar to the Cure Light Wounds since this affects multiple targets multiple rounds) but this means its most powerful at low levels OR it should be reduced to +1 per 2 levels so that it scales better and ends up being still fairly powerful at higher levels. Last night the latter would've been 1d4+2 for Rowan, which still would've likely killed some of your goblin stooges, Nail, but not statistically all of them. And your sergeant would've had an easier time as well.

Otherwise I think it's very comparable to Web (which holds you tighter in a smaller area, but allows you to take most any action you want). The difference in power it has over Web I think is balanced with its lack of utility & castability in any non-vegetative area. Since we're heading (hopefully) under Aldur's Look it's now useless, while Tieran's Web will be just as strong as it always is. While we're travelling and fighting in the forest I want Rowan to shine, 'cuz that's where Druids are da bomb, you know?

DrSpunj

 

[niteshade6]

If nothing else, briar web needs some kind of damage cap, like d4+5 or something. At higher levels the damage it does really starts to add up, and it can really put casters right out of commision. Personaly I like the idea where it just does d4 flat out. Even wizards don't get to do that much damage with no save in a huge area with a lvl 2 spell, and that's ignoring the pretty major other effects it has.

 

[Nifft]

I still say: cap the damage at 1d4, and apply it only to movement. Otherwise, the spell is better than Spike Stones, and that's not a good thing.

(The average damage of 1d4+2 equals the average damage of 1d8. So, at 3rd level -- the earliest level at which it can be cast -- this spell outclasses a 4th level spell. NOT GOOD.)

-- N