D&D (2024) Is Counterspell less frustrating now?

[Clint_L]

Was not that the event that allowed Arkhan the cruel to get the Hand and Eye of Vecna?

It was, and it also directly led to a major plot point in the current Critical Role campaign.

I need to rewatch that episode. It was amazing. So many great moments:

Spoiler: Spoiler for Critical Role Campaign 1 finale

Vox Machina barely surviving not one but two meteor swarms. Grog getting banished until Percy finally manages to break Vecna's concentration. Zahra and Kashaw showing up. Pike's first ever casting of mass heal just when the party seemed doomed, and just before they were hit by a third meteor swarm that would have been a TPK. Arkhan showing up at a clutch moment. Vecna attempting to teleport away only to be foiled by Scanlan's 9th level counterspell...after which a visibly distraught Sam Riegal said "I was going to save Vax" (the character Vax'Ildan had been killed and brought back as a revenant specifically to defeat Vecna, so would die again at the end of the battle...unless Scanlan used a wish spell, which was his plan). Vecna preventing Scanlan, the only character who could read the arcane text, from completing a magical ritual that would banish him from the Prime material plane...only for Marisha Rae, whose druid had earlier shapeshifted into a planetar, to realize that planetars can read all languages and thus grabbing the scroll and finishing the ritual in the nick of time. It is the hands down the best D&D battle I have ever seen! Oh, and then Arkhan stealing the hand and eye and teleporting away using the hand, just to cap things off.

Note that counterspell is cast close to a half a dozen times in that battle, by both sides, and far from reducing drama, it raises it to incredible levels.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It was, and it also directly led to a major plot point in the current Critical Role campaign.

I need to rewatch that episode. It was amazing.

That makes it canon in FR because while I have never played or run I believe that Arkhan features in Decent to Avernus as the holder of the Hand and Eye of Vecna.

 

[Clint_L]

That makes it canon in FR because while I have never played or run I believe that Arkhan features in Decent to Avernus as the holder of the Hand and Eye of Vecna.

Sure does. And also, since WotC publishes the Exandria setting from Critical Role, all of those events are canon part of the D&D multiverse. Though if you go back to Gygax, all of D&D, including our home games, is canon, in a way.

 

[Stalker0]

It was, and it also directly led to a major plot point in the current Critical Role campaign.

Ultimately though we could say that about a number of things that ultimately might be "imbalanced". For example, I am sure there is a game out there where a paladin used smite 3 times (with a TWF thing) and just gakked the BBEG, and it became a "major plot point" of that game.

But that alone doesn't mean an ability is good or balanced, as they looking to remove multiple smites in a round (because its too good). Obviously we want abilities to be fun, but the key is its fun on both sides of the screen. I feel like counterspell (at least historically) detracts from fun more than it adds, and this from my experience with the spell. I have tried the spell as is, I have tried it with a few houserules. Ultimately in my last game I just banned the spell outright....and honestly, didn't miss it one bit. My players aren't demanding the spell returns, everyone is having plenty of fun, and as a DM I no longer have to worry about this one spell having such a dramatic impact on my combats. To me it was a complete win/win.

 

[Clint_L]

Ultimately though we could say that about a number of things that ultimately might be "imbalanced". For example, I am sure there is a game out there where a paladin used smite 3 times (with a TWF thing) and just gakked the BBEG, and it became a "major plot point" of that game.

But that alone doesn't mean an ability is good or balanced, as they looking to remove multiple smites in a round (because its too good). Obviously we want abilities to be fun, but the key is its fun on both sides of the screen. I feel like counterspell (at least historically) detracts from fun more than it adds, and this from my experience with the spell. I have tried the spell as is, I have tried it with a few houserules. Ultimately in my last game I just banned the spell outright....and honestly, didn't miss it one bit. My players aren't demanding the spell returns, everyone is having plenty of fun, and as a DM I no longer have to worry about this one spell having such a dramatic impact on my combats. To me it was a complete win/win.

Then it seems like you've solved the problem for your table. Fair enough. I love counterspell, but I've thought about banning healing word. That's the spell that I think really warps the game at a narrative level by removing almost all the stakes from combat.

As for counterspell and drama - I was responding to a post claiming that it removed drama from the game - that is neither my personal experience nor something that I have seen in the actual play shows that I have watched/listened to (which is a lot; all of Critical Role at least once, all of Dimension 20, and many more besides). I'm just not seeing that particular problem.

 

[mellored]

I like Counterspell too and it adds to the flavor of the game. When you think of great magic duels you cannot help think of a great wizard’s ability to preempt or counter the mage they are battling.

People are weird about this spell but it is cool and adds an element of strategy.

It might make it feel like an element of strategy. But it's pretty straight forward.
(Not that there is anything wrong with feeling like a strategic mastermind in a fantasy game).

Anyways. The only differences is that you roll against the target instead of the spell, and you don't lose slots.

Not sure which part of that changes the feeling.

 

[Stalker0]

Then it seems like you've solved the problem for your table. Fair enough. I love counterspell, but I've thought about banning healing word. That's the spell that I think really warps the game at a narrative level by removing almost all the stakes from combat.

As for counterspell and drama - I was responding to a post claiming that it removed drama from the game - that is neither my personal experience nor something that I have seen in the actual play shows that I have watched/listened to (which is a lot; all of Critical Role at least once, all of Dimension 20, and many more besides). I'm just not seeing that particular problem.

Alright lets flip the script a bit, as we have been focusing on why "counterspell is bad", and that's just splitting the audience.

Fair enough, you like counterspell and want it to stay strong. So looking at the change, is a saving throw a terrible mechanic versus the old ability check? (they are doing similar things to athletics and grapple as an example...which seems to be popular). It does allow legendary monsters to bypass it....but is there any reason that CS should be "special" compared to polymorph, banishment, or hold monster? The mechanic exists to give bosses a chance against the "big whammy spells", aren't they entitled to protection against CS as much as any other big whammy that messes with their action economy?

In one way this allows casters to burn through LRs even faster, as one caster could burn through 2 LRs in a round (with a regular spell + counterspell) as opposed to only 1 before.

 

[Scribe]

Alright lets flip the script a bit, as we have been focusing on why "counterspell is bad", and that's just splitting the audience.

Fair enough, you like counterspell and want it to stay strong. So looking at the change, is a saving throw a terrible mechanic versus the old ability check? (they are doing similar things to athletics and grapple as an example...which seems to be popular). It does allow legendary monsters to bypass it....but is there any reason that CS should be "special" compared to polymorph, banishment, or hold monster? The mechanic exists to give bosses a chance against the "big whammy spells", aren't they entitled to protection against CS as much as any other big whammy that messes with their action economy?

In one way this allows casters to burn through LRs even faster, as one caster could burn through 2 LRs in a round (with a regular spell + counterspell) as opposed to only 1 before.

I think its fine enough. At first I didnt like the Con check aspect, but considering Concentration functions off the same, and as you note other things are being updated (Athletics/Grapple) I'm fine with that consistency.

I am 'meh' over the spell slot being lost, but the lost of the Action may be punishing enough?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Alright lets flip the script a bit, as we have been focusing on why "counterspell is bad", and that's just splitting the audience.

Fair enough, you like counterspell and want it to stay strong. So looking at the change, is a saving throw a terrible mechanic versus the old ability check? (they are doing similar things to athletics and grapple as an example...which seems to be popular). It does allow legendary monsters to bypass it....but is there any reason that CS should be "special" compared to polymorph, banishment, or hold monster? The mechanic exists to give bosses a chance against the "big whammy spells", aren't they entitled to protection against CS as much as any other big whammy that messes with their action economy?

In one way this allows casters to burn through LRs even faster, as one caster could burn through 2 LRs in a round (with a regular spell + counterspell) as opposed to only 1 before.

I am coming around to thinking it is better than the old way. Spell slots really do not matter to NPCs as fights rare last long enough for their slot allocation to matter.
Actions matter more.
Depriving the bad guy of the action is probably worth it.
Also the upcasting guessing game no longer matters.

 

[mellored]

I am coming around to thinking it is better than the old way. Spell slots really do not matter to NPCs as fights rare last long enough for their slot allocation to matter.
Actions matter more.
Depriving the bad guy of the action is probably worth it.
Also the upcasting guessing game no longer matters.

This.

Keeping spell slots helps PCs a lot more than NPCs.

And switching to a Con save is a bit easier than having to calculate a new DC in the middle of combat.

Int save could also work.