D&D (2024) Is Counterspell less frustrating now?

[Bacon Bits]

I really wish Counter spell had various versions of it my levels. So maybe a 3rd level version that counters 1-2nd level spells and so forth. Maybe even tack on a little ribbon effect if you make a roll (gain a spell slot of the spell countered). At least this would follow the flavor of MTG and red vs blue themes and make it more specific so that a 1st level wizard cannot cancel the spells of a 5th level.

I would rather they not be literal Counterspell. The Magic team learned not only that counterspells aren't fun, but blanket counterspells are not fun. A universal answer is a bad design.

If they insist that it be part of the game, I would rather they have designs like:

1. Deflection Screen: Counter a spell that targets an ally, attacks an ally, damages an ally, or otherwise forces an ally to make an immediate saving throw.
2. Disperse Element: Counter a spell that deals fire, cold, lighting, acid, or poison damage.
3. Arcane Denial: Counter a spell if the caster is Arcane.
4. Sudden Shielding: Choose up to two creatures affected by a spell. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on any saving throw against that spell, and if the spell would normally have an effect on those creatures on a successful saving throw, instead there is no effect on those creatures.
5. Focused Energy: If a spell targets of affects one or more creatures, then instead of it's normal effect the spell is warped into a ray of pure arcane energy. The target spell instead deals 2d6 force damage per spell level to up to one affected target. The original caster may choose which target or affected creature of the original spell is struck by the ray.
6. Unleash Conjuration: One conjuration or summoning spell is subverted. If a spell would conjure or summon one or more creatures under the caster's control, instead the creatures go wild and attack the creatures of your choice.
7. Mirror, Mirror: If a spell targets a single creature, the spell is instead reflected back to the caster. The caster suffers the effects of their own spell, plus takes 3d6 force damage in backlash. Material components: A bit of flour mixed with water, and a tiny ball of tree sap.

And so on. This is why spells like Absorb Elements are the right way to do reaction spells, while Counterspell, Shield, and Silvery Barbs are wrong. They're too broad! Countering is a powerful effect. Forcing a caster to make a choice and take a gamble during preparation is better. Release Energy might let you turn a buff into the opponents attacking themselves, but if instead, they hit you with a Fireball, you might be limited to narrowing the damage to a single ally target as a tradeoff. Mirror, Mirror might be really potent against certain casters, but against most AOE spells it's simply ineffective.

 

[Scribe]

I would rather they not be literal Counterspell. The Magic team learned not only that counterspells aren't fun, but blanket counterspells are not fun. A universal answer is a bad design.

The Magic team learned no such thing. The Magic team learned that a segment of the player base would rather mindless push and/or cast into open mana without thinking about being countered. This is base anti-U propaganda!

 

[Clint_L]

I am coming around to thinking it is better than the old way. Spell slots really do not matter to NPCs as fights rare last long enough for their slot allocation to matter.
Actions matter more.
Depriving the bad guy of the action is probably worth it.
Also the upcasting guessing game no longer matters.

I love the upcasting guessing game! "Oh, the BBEG is casting something! Is it going to be terrible? How terrible? Worth a counterspell? How much of a counterspell?...I only have one high level spell slot left, and maybe it won't be enough..."

 

[Bacon Bits]

The Magic team learned no such thing. The Magic team learned that a segment of the player base would rather mindless push and/or cast into open mana without thinking about being countered. This is base anti-U propaganda!

The last time I recall U/W control being a thing was Return to Ravnica. Which is older than 5e D&D. And I hate to tell ya, but Cryptic Command is not just older than 5e D&D. It's older than 4e D&D.

Sure, they put Archmage's Charm and Force of Negation and Counterspell in Modern. But Modern still doesn't really have a traditional counter-based control deck. It's all 4c Omnath and The One Ring decks.

Not that people are really playing anything other than EDH, cube, and limited now.

 

[Scribe]

Sure, they put Archmage's Charm and Force of Negation and Counterspell in Modern. But Modern still doesn't really have a traditional counter-based control deck.

Wizards ruining the game is not a valid argument.

There absolutely have been periods where control has been viable.

 

[Asisreo]

Oh Snap. Does a caster's Globe of Invulnerability or a Rakshasa's "Limited Magic Immunity" mean their spells can't be countered by low level counterspells? Should Counterspell be upcastable to overcome those limitations?

For GoI, yes. For Rakshasa's, no. For all intents and purposes, a 6th-level counterspell is still a 6th-level spell.

GoI specifically says that upcast spells are still not able to penetrate them if their original level was below the level GoI was used to cast.

Technically, a 9th-level GoI against a team of spellcasters that aren't 17+ could be disasterous.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I've had enough boss monsters in my game get completely shut down by counterspell, which is why I tossed it myself. I found that I was starting to design combats completely around this one spell....and when that starts to happen I know a spell has gotten too good.

Boss monsters already have precious few rounds to show their stuff to a party before they normally got ganked, removing even 1 round from them is basically neutering them.

At least this version lets them use LR, and sure it might make them use them quicker but at least its an option.

That's why I allow boss monsters to cast AND attack. If it helps you give them an Action Surge/Point or two, or if you want to be mechanical base it off their CR or HD. And more importantly THIS decision to change monsters was not based on Counterspell at all.

Monsters should be feared and as a DM it is fun to "reveal" the monsters' abilities as much as it is fun for players to reveal their cool abilities on their turns. WotC made some pretty noob mistakes in monster design as if evident by all the 3rd party supplements for monsters these days.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I would rather they not be literal Counterspell. The Magic team learned not only that counterspells aren't fun, but blanket counterspells are not fun. A universal answer is a bad design.

If they insist that it be part of the game, I would rather they have designs like:

1. Deflection Screen: Counter a spell that targets an ally, attacks an ally, damages an ally, or otherwise forces an ally to make an immediate saving throw.
2. Disperse Element: Counter a spell that deals fire, cold, lighting, acid, or poison damage.
3. Arcane Denial: Counter a spell if the caster is Arcane.
4. Sudden Shielding: Choose up to two creatures affected by a spell. The chosen creatures automatically succeed on any saving throw against that spell, and if the spell would normally have an effect on those creatures on a successful saving throw, instead there is no effect on those creatures.
5. Focused Energy: If a spell targets of affects one or more creatures, then instead of it's normal effect the spell is warped into a ray of pure arcane energy. The target spell instead deals 2d6 force damage per spell level to up to one affected target. The original caster may choose which target or affected creature of the original spell is struck by the ray.
6. Unleash Conjuration: One conjuration or summoning spell is subverted. If a spell would conjure or summon one or more creatures under the caster's control, instead the creatures go wild and attack the creatures of your choice.
7. Mirror, Mirror: If a spell targets a single creature, the spell is instead reflected back to the caster. The caster suffers the effects of their own spell, plus takes 3d6 force damage in backlash. Material components: A bit of flour mixed with water, and a tiny ball of tree sap.

And so on. This is why spells like Absorb Elements are the right way to do reaction spells, while Counterspell, Shield, and Silvery Barbs are wrong. They're too broad! Countering is a powerful effect. Forcing a caster to make a choice and take a gamble during preparation is better. Release Energy might let you turn a buff into the opponents attacking themselves, but if instead, they hit you with a Fireball, you might be limited to narrowing the damage to a single ally target as a tradeoff. Mirror, Mirror might be really potent against certain casters, but against most AOE spells it's simply ineffective.

Are the numbers 1-7 the level of the spells? And
What do you mean Arcane for no 3? i.e. wizards? So you counter all wizard spells?

 

[Bacon Bits]

Are the numbers 1-7 the level of the spells?

Nope. There isn't that much thought put into them.

What do you mean Arcane for no 3? i.e. wizards? So you counter all wizard spells?

Last I knew, they were doing Arcane, Divine, and Nature. I kind of stopped caring after they announced they were walking everything interesting back, so I assume they abandoned that? Either way, I didn't put that much thought into it.

My point was just that they ought to have something with a little more design work than:

 

[AnotherGuy]

Nope. There isn't that much thought put into them.



Last I knew, they were doing Arcane, Divine, and Nature. I kind of stopped caring after they announced they were walking everything interesting back, so I assume they abandoned that? Either way, I didn't put that much thought into it.

My point was just that they ought to have something with a little more design work than:

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For what it's worth I'm gonna use some of your ideas while changing a few other things in our D&D magic system.

Storyline wise Mystra was brought back, somewhat weakened, via the 2nd sundering - it required shutting down her protégé Elminster's access to the Weave as well as others in order for her to reshape the Weave stronger and more durable, as well as refine the laws of magic. It's the reason why Elminster and the other prominent names are unable to assist the PCs in fixing the Ordning (SKT) and against the forces of Tiamat (RoT).