Hypersmurf
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Depends on whether the DM feels that the FAQ can supercede the Core Rules as errata, or only clarify ambiguous passages
-Hyp.
Is coup de grace a broken rule?
- Thread starter Tom McCafferty
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Depends on whether the DM feels that the FAQ can supercede the Core Rules as errata, or only clarify ambiguous passages
-Hyp.
I think the main thing to keep in mind is that it is relatively easy to kill a sleeping creature, and the rules are designed to show this. This seems perfectly right with the world.
So, creatures in dangerous situations take precautions. It sounds like you did that, with a good watch. Good job.
Creatures that have magical spells can get around a watch, if they are careful, and put enough resources into it. As mentioned before, this took all of the PCs' resources for the day (pretty much). They were careful, and this was a very well-planned ambush. Again, I would say good job to the PCs.
The thing that seems to be the problem is that the PCs are doing this repeatedly. Even this, I would say isn't really a problem - if they want to gain a reputation for being the silent, deadly assassins in the night, that cause even the biggest of monsters to be afraid of the dark, I say more power to them - that's a cool concept, and definitely workable.
The thing that you seem to be lacking is consequences. There is a reason that 3rd level parties don't have an uber-assassin reputation, and that reason is that they aren't good enough for it yet. They have enough resources to pull off the attack, but as other have mentioned, there are usually problems afterwards:
First of all, 4 CR 2 and 2 CR 3 creatures should give a 3rd level party a serious run for the money, especially since the magic users have already used most of their spells.
Secondly, as others have said, someone will be looking for revenge for this group, if they are part of any organization whatsoever, and the party will have to try to keep out of their sight without using any of the magic they already used (or are saving for the next night's raid), and being only 3rd level that can be difficult. Maybe more powerful creatures, getting worried about these nighttime assassins, puts a bounty on their head.
Basically, doing this should be very possible, but doing it constantly should bring in all sorts of complications, unless they are just picking off random loners in the wilderness, in which case who cares?
I would tone down the XP slightly for the giants, since they weren't exactly a CR 10 encounter, but overall the party definitely handled the problem well and deserves to be rewarded for it. IMHO.
So, creatures in dangerous situations take precautions. It sounds like you did that, with a good watch. Good job.
Creatures that have magical spells can get around a watch, if they are careful, and put enough resources into it. As mentioned before, this took all of the PCs' resources for the day (pretty much). They were careful, and this was a very well-planned ambush. Again, I would say good job to the PCs.
The thing that seems to be the problem is that the PCs are doing this repeatedly. Even this, I would say isn't really a problem - if they want to gain a reputation for being the silent, deadly assassins in the night, that cause even the biggest of monsters to be afraid of the dark, I say more power to them - that's a cool concept, and definitely workable.
The thing that you seem to be lacking is consequences. There is a reason that 3rd level parties don't have an uber-assassin reputation, and that reason is that they aren't good enough for it yet. They have enough resources to pull off the attack, but as other have mentioned, there are usually problems afterwards:
First of all, 4 CR 2 and 2 CR 3 creatures should give a 3rd level party a serious run for the money, especially since the magic users have already used most of their spells.
Secondly, as others have said, someone will be looking for revenge for this group, if they are part of any organization whatsoever, and the party will have to try to keep out of their sight without using any of the magic they already used (or are saving for the next night's raid), and being only 3rd level that can be difficult. Maybe more powerful creatures, getting worried about these nighttime assassins, puts a bounty on their head.
Basically, doing this should be very possible, but doing it constantly should bring in all sorts of complications, unless they are just picking off random loners in the wilderness, in which case who cares?
I would tone down the XP slightly for the giants, since they weren't exactly a CR 10 encounter, but overall the party definitely handled the problem well and deserves to be rewarded for it. IMHO.
the Jester
Legend
Drawmack said:
Err... that would also be a house rule on skills, right?
It's suggested as a variant in the DMG for attack rolls (we use that one imc) but I don't recall it suggested for anything else. I could be wrong, of course.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Far from calling these adventurers cowardly, I'd say they were amazingly brave.
Sure, these tactics are likely to net them two dead fire giants, but by all rights they should have sacrificed their lives in the process.
Other people have pointed out some problems with their plans. There's another big problem, too: how far away was the rest of the party when the rogues sneaked in?
If they were more than sixty feet away, then they couldn't join the battle the next round. If they were less than sixty feet away, there's a good chance they'd be noticed, and the jig would be up.
Furthermore, given that the rogues were silenced and invisible, how did they coordinate their attacks? That shouldn't have been easy to do.
Finally, how on earth did this group survive an attack by four ogres and two dire wolves? The ogres should, by all rights, be ganging up on one character and pounding it into dust; the wolves should be doing likewise. I would NEVER sic such a group on a party of third-level characters (the ogres alone are EL6; add the wolves in, and it's EL 7-8), and these are third-level characters who have already used up the bulk of their spells in an effort to kill off an EL12 group of fire giants.
CDG is fine, and your party is to be commended for using clever tactics. Their epitaph could read, "As clever as they were foolhardy. Killed two giants; killed by four ogres and two dire wolves."
Daniel
Sure, these tactics are likely to net them two dead fire giants, but by all rights they should have sacrificed their lives in the process.
Other people have pointed out some problems with their plans. There's another big problem, too: how far away was the rest of the party when the rogues sneaked in?
If they were more than sixty feet away, then they couldn't join the battle the next round. If they were less than sixty feet away, there's a good chance they'd be noticed, and the jig would be up.
Furthermore, given that the rogues were silenced and invisible, how did they coordinate their attacks? That shouldn't have been easy to do.
Finally, how on earth did this group survive an attack by four ogres and two dire wolves? The ogres should, by all rights, be ganging up on one character and pounding it into dust; the wolves should be doing likewise. I would NEVER sic such a group on a party of third-level characters (the ogres alone are EL6; add the wolves in, and it's EL 7-8), and these are third-level characters who have already used up the bulk of their spells in an effort to kill off an EL12 group of fire giants.
CDG is fine, and your party is to be commended for using clever tactics. Their epitaph could read, "As clever as they were foolhardy. Killed two giants; killed by four ogres and two dire wolves."
Daniel
Tom McCafferty
Explorer
This was an encounter they took on themselves. They had tracked the giants until they got the right conditions.
They also got lucky and beat the dire wolves and ogres for initiative. They then tumbled out of the way to avoid AOOs
They also got lucky and beat the dire wolves and ogres for initiative. They then tumbled out of the way to avoid AOOs
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Tom McCafferty said:
Technically this wouldn't have worked, although I can agree with you on the minor rules alteration you did.
You cannot CDG someone as a surprise action: it has to be a full-round action.
So it would have had to work like this:
1) Surprise round: PCs twiddle thumbs (or move into position, or whatever).
2) First round: PCs win initiative, and kill fire giants. Ogres and wolves go. (Alternately, Ogres and wolves win initiative and do nothing; PCs kill fire giants. Then, in the second round, the ogres and wolves would go first).
But it's a reasonable stretching of the rules in this case to allow a CDG as a surprise action, I think. If I did that, however, I'd definitely not let them go first in the normal round: CDGing should take longer than a normal attack, since it's a full-round action.
Nevertheless, I'm still shocked that they won a combat against four ogres and two wolves. Didn't the wolves trip? Didn't the ogres charge?
Daniel
Storm Raven
First Post
Drawmack said:
You mean that the martial, melee weapons in my copy of the PHB like the longspear (x3), the glaive (x3), the scythe (x4), the light pick (x4), the battleaxe (x3), the heavy pick (x4) and the warhammer (x3) are all misprints? This does not even begin to note the horrible error that simple melee weapons like the halfspear (x3) and shortspear (x3) must represent.
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Pielorinho said:
All due respect, but no, it isn't.
In order to use CdG as a surprise (i.e. partial) action, you would need a feat (Death Blow) or levels in a prestige class (Gladiator). The rogues have neither of these, and thus shouldn't be allowed to do this. I don't believe in granting such advantages for free when the rules already make allowances for paying for those advantages.
Also, the rogues could have used the Start Full-Round Action partial action to commence their CdGs. That's the correct thing to do by the rules, and accurately represents the difficulty of lining up a called shot on a Huge creature while sneaking about.
Pielorinho said:
He also never answered the question of just how the heck halflings were wielding longspears.
This whole combat sounds pretty screwy, with at least a couple of bad rules calls made. It doesn't sound like a fair test of how "broken" the CDG rule is.
Anyway, I think the purpose of the CDG rule was to clarify the mechanics for killing helpless opponents. In 1e and 2e, attacking a helpless opponent pretty just meant instant death (I can't remember if this was actually in the rules, or just a very common house rule). So the CDG is actually less deadly than it used to be...
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