Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?

[hong]

So you're actually agreeing with my point that 4E appeals to people who are already customers of MMOs, Star Trek, Farscape et cetera.

This for me is a lost battle. Between playing on a console/PC (or watching a show on TV) with little to no hard rules to comprehend before playing, and digesting hundreds of pages of abstract ideas, these gamers will just keep on playing instantly rewarding games.

This just makes D&D more geekish, more entrenched as an has-been's hobby (not unlike wargames were to RPGs when they rose). Not less. It's like an old lady that dies her hair platinum and wears slut clothing to appeal to younger men. That doesn't make her any more attractive, but instead underlines her issues with her own age.

Millennarian thinking is so 1999.

 

[knifie_sp00nie]

It's worth noting that many people consider Star Wars to be closer to fantasy than science fiction. There is almost no actual science in SW. Instead there are wizards (jedi), sword fights, princesses, and dashing rogues. There are elements that we recognize as technology, but the technology is never the focus. You could completely re-skin the entirety of Star Wars to take place on a single fantasy planet with DnD level technology and have all the story elements remain intact.

A lot of the arguments here can be reduced down to a chicken-egg problem. Does anyone discover DnD in a vacuum and have to be introduced to fantasy elements, or do people already minimally versed in fantasy go on to discover DnD?

One thing I've noticed on forums when people talk about getting their first boxed set is that initially they were overwhelmed and couldn't make heads or tails of the thing until someone more experienced helped them sort it out.

I think the best way to introduce the lay person to the game would be a high production quality video of a game session, followed up by more in-depth instruction. The video WotC put out was an ok experiment for video novices, but they really need pros to pull it off well.

 

[MichaelSomething]

D&D needs a TV show dedicated to new D&D stuff, and class builds and stuff.

And more ads and stuff with hot chicks playing D&D. Nothing sells stuff more then hot chicks.

If agreeing with this post is wrong, I don't want to be right!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's worth noting that many people consider Star Wars to be closer to fantasy than science fiction. There is almost no actual science in SW. Instead there are wizards (jedi), sword fights, princesses, and dashing rogues. There are elements that we recognize as technology, but the technology is never the focus. You could completely re-skin the entirety of Star Wars to take place on a single fantasy planet with DnD level technology and have all the story elements remain intact.

I really don't think that you could. Technology is never the focus, I agree, but it's more embedded in SW than you think, and frequent long-distant high-speed travel is a feature of the SW universe, and not really a feature of typical fantasy universes.

I agree that SW is "science fantasy" or even arguably pure fantasy with technological elements, but you can't do what you're claiming you could and keep the story intact, certainly not if we're talking movies 1 through 6.

 

[Corjay]

I really don't think that you could. Technology is never the focus, I agree, but it's more embedded in SW than you think, and frequent long-distant high-speed travel is a feature of the SW universe, and not really a feature of typical fantasy universes.

I agree that SW is "science fantasy" or even arguably pure fantasy with technological elements, but you can't do what you're claiming you could and keep the story intact, certainly not if we're talking movies 1 through 6.

One of the features that science fiction elitists require of science fiction (I know, because I've had several such conversations with them) is that the plot must be resolved through the science. Despite my disagreement on that point, this point in their argument remains valid: without science being used to resolve the plot, the story can be transferred to ANY setting. Not one point in Star Wars is the plot ever resolved with the science. You could replace AT-AT's with elephants, X-wings with dragons or other flying mounts, blasters with crossbows and bows & arrows, the Death Star and Death Star II with any enemy base, and turbo laser with any magical device that threatens the world. "Frequent long-distance high-speed travel" has absolutely no bearing on the story; a fantasy character could just as easily walk through a magic portal or lose their opponent on a horse or any other kind of mount.

 

[Leontodon]

Umm, what? There have been tons of "demonic" style good guys for years. Heck, the faun from Narnia looks pretty much like a tiefling. The anti-hero is a pretty popular tradition too. Your entire argument requires that we ignore the past several decades of fantasy in order to only look at themes that occur prior to about 1900.



I would say that the boxed set got lots of people into the game true. But, it was usually one person buying the boxed set and then teaching it to others.

Kinda like now. Except now you have millions of people who have already played TRPG's, who can teach new people how to play the game, unlike in 1980, when no one had ever heard of a TRPG and thus had no one to teach them.

In other words, how many boxed sets would each group typically have? Unless each person bought their own and learned the rules independently, it's still valid to say that viral marketing drove Basic D&D, same as always.

Well the Faun from Narnia is a Faun not something which has the word EEEVIIIL written all over his face. And playing an anti-hero is fine with me it just should not be core. And yes the greatest and most important part of our cultural memory dates back prior to 1900. The Faun from Narnia will stay the Faun from Narnia for a very long time and Hellboy will be recognizable as THE Hellboy for a very long time. Both are extremely specialised while the noble knight, the ambigous elf, the heroic swashbuckler (without horns, scales or other weird stuff), the gold-hearted thief and the dwarven warrior are not.

 

[Desdichado]

The entire question of the OP presupposes that "traditional" fantasy is automatically more popular and more likely to attract new players.

I don't find that a very compelling or believable argument. The person you mentioned thought it looked like Star Wars? Heck yeah! It's like fantasy Star Wars! Star Wars has more fans than D&D could ever hope to have. What's wrong with that?

Plus: video games. Final Fantasy. Fable. All the rest. No, I'd argue that there's more evidence that "out there" is exactly what the game needs to be to attract more players.

"Semi-realistic" medievalism is becoming the province of older and more hide-bound and insular fantasy fans every day. Fantasy literature, movies and games today are not very medieval. "Out there" sells.

Granted, that's not the only factor, but I think there's an indirect correllation.

 

[Leontodon]

I really don't think that you could. Technology is never the focus, I agree, but it's more embedded in SW than you think, and frequent long-distant high-speed travel is a feature of the SW universe, and not really a feature of typical fantasy universes.

I agree that SW is "science fantasy" or even arguably pure fantasy with technological elements, but you can't do what you're claiming you could and keep the story intact, certainly not if we're talking movies 1 through 6.

Are the movies 1 to 3 actually Star Wars? I think you could do what the poster you answered to stated. Deathstar= Castle, Fast Travel= Horseback, X-Wing= jousting/ maybe some swashbuckling, Darth Vader= err Black Knight?, Alderaan= Rivendale. I mean most of the story can be easily traced back to the new testament, the oddissey, etc.. A messiah figure hailing from a fringe desert territory occupied by a vast empire? Even the temptation by the devil is in part six. (love it!)

 

[The Highway Man]

Millennarian thinking is so 1999.

I would understand if I was presenting a doomsday scenario here, but I'm not. No Armageddon coming our way, as far as I'm aware. Just slow decline.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Are the movies 1 to 3 actually Star Wars? I think you could do what the poster you answered to stated. Deathstar= Castle, Fast Travel= Horseback, X-Wing= jousting/ maybe some swashbuckling, Darth Vader= err Black Knight?, Alderaan= Rivendale. I mean most of the story can be easily traced back to the new testament, the oddissey, etc.. A messiah figure hailing from a fringe desert territory occupied by a vast empire? Even the temptation by the devil is in part six. (love it!)

See, that doesn't work even for 4, 5, 6, because the Death Star moves and is capable of destroying entire planets (which could translate to cities). Sure, SW 4 could be compared to "A Hidden Fortress", but SW 5 and 6 aren't.

The Deathstar could be magical floating fortress with incredibly powerful magical weapon built into it, or containing a cabal of wizards capable of casting a horrible powerful ritual of destruction, of course, but it MUST be able to move, and it MUST be able to destroy cities to retain the plot.

The fast travel is clearly NOT equivalent to horseback riding, as it's safe and covers much more vast distances with no stopping. Airship travel, maybe. Luke isn't really a messiah figure, either, that's stretching things. Don't confuse Dune and Star Wars.

Otherwise you're just picking and choosing plot elements. If we do that, there's not a film in the world, not even hacking movies like Sneakers which couldn't be rendered in such a form, which renders the whole debate meaningless.

Really, what you're looking at for a literalist SW analog is probably something set in an archipelago-world, with the Deathstar as a huge evil ship or moving island, the Imperial fleet as an actual Imperial sea fleet, and the Millenium Falcon as some brave little ship with a clever captain. X-Wings and Tie Fighters could become small dragons or the like, perhaps with Luke riding his into the bowels of the ship-island (pretty sure there's a good D&D campaign in there somewhere).

Still, there's a reason technology is used, and whilst SW is fantasy, claiming that the tech is immaterial to the story isn't quite right.