The Highway Man
First Post
This has actually nothing to do with conversation at hand, whatsoever, but are you seriously claiming that Star Wars actually isn't Fantasy? If not, what is it, then?
Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?
- Thread starter Ruin Explorer
- Start date
This has actually nothing to do with conversation at hand, whatsoever, but are you seriously claiming that Star Wars actually isn't Fantasy? If not, what is it, then?
Man, I remember when the D&D cartoon came out and half the party was bizarre 'newfangled' Unearthed Arcana classes like Cavalier, Barbarian and Acrobat... A new cartoon with an Eladrin Warlock (fey pact, so as not to upset the crazies), Dragonborn Paladin and / or Tiefling all-alone-bemoaning-his-outcast-state Wizard could be just the ticket!
(And there's even precedent for putting a half-demon in a kiddie show, thanks to the Teen Titans cartoon using the character of Raven, a gothy, emo, half-demon with dark naughty powers!)
Oh yeah, infinite quatloo to the person who quoted Darmok and Jilaad at Tenegra. Fly that geek flag with pride!
TwinBahamut
First Post
I know I am not the person you addressed this to, but let me answer anyways.This has actually nothing to do with conversation at hand, whatsoever, but are you seriously claiming that Star Wars actually isn't Fantasy? If not, what is it, then?
Star Wars is a classic fairy-tale set in a Sci-Fi setting.
Honestly, I think a very large number of people out there, probably the vast majoirty, consider Sci-Fi to be a type of setting rather than a type of story, and under that definition Star Wars is unquestionably Science Fiction. Star Wars is defined as a Science fiction re-imagining of a classic Arthurian fairy-tale, and falls completely outside the realm of Fantasy as a type of setting.
Overall, I have never agreed with any kind of definition of "science fiction" that would exclude Star Wars. At the same time, I wouldn't ever claim that Science Fiction and Fantasy have ever been anything but two different "flavors" for the exact same genre, two settings which tend to have a lot of overlap. Trying to make any kind of distinction between the two, other than a generic "Science Fiction has spaceship and robots, while fantasy has armored knights, castles, and wizards" can be a very messy process, particularly when you run into a setting built around artificially created cyborgs who use magic and fight alongside knights in order to defeat computer viruses, robots, and dragons (I'm not making this up, it actually exists, and it includes Dragonborn-like dragon people, too). I guess, the only important thing is "what is the setting trying to present itself as", rather than anything else. Star Wars presents itself as Science Fiction, not Fantasy or an explicit blend of the two, so it is Science Fiction.
To get back to the original subject of the thread, I don't think anything in 4E is "far out" at all. Honestly, 4E's basic setting is incredibly tame and perhaps overly traditional compared to most of the stuff I run into in videogames and anime. In fact, I would say that there is nothing "far out" about Tielfings and Dragonborn at all, at least not when compared to even half of the "classic" D&D monsters. Compared to a Dragonborn, which is essentially just an anthropomorphized dragon (neither half of that is uncommon in the least, and even the specific combination is common enough in of itself), bizarre creatures like Beholders and Githyanki are the ones that are out of place.
As a comparison... How would a talking animal as a default player race rank on the "far out" spectrum? If 4E included talking animals as a default PHB character option, there would probably be a number of people accusing it as "weird", "untraditional", and "anime", and lament the loss of a "traditional" race they might have replaced (lets use Half-Elves). However, talking animals (and anthropomorphized animals) are probably the single most common form of non-human creature in the entire history of human storytelling, vastly outranking elves by several orders of magnitude, and half-elves by several more. Someone claiming that talking animals are "untraditional" or "far out" would be making a severe mistake; primarily mistaking a single, extremely limited fantasy tradition (previous editions of D&D), for the entirety of the fantasy tradition and fantasy fandom. I think complaints about how "far out" 4E is are based in similar poor logic.
Particle_Man
Explorer
Dragonborn to noobs: "You know that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Well these are like Strong Lizard-Men, with a big code of honor, and they can breathe fire! Dude!"
Tieflings: "Their ancestors made a pact with devils, so now they are stuck with horns and stuff and lots of people distrust them. But they can still choose to be heroes."
Compare the following:
Gnomes: Uh, not the garden gnomes. They are kinda like dwarves, but more magical with illusions and stuff. No, not elves, they are short like dwarves.
Half-Orcs: A child of a human and a horrible monster. Oh, you don't like rape in your games?
I think I will back 4e's play, here.
Tieflings: "Their ancestors made a pact with devils, so now they are stuck with horns and stuff and lots of people distrust them. But they can still choose to be heroes."
Compare the following:
Gnomes: Uh, not the garden gnomes. They are kinda like dwarves, but more magical with illusions and stuff. No, not elves, they are short like dwarves.
Half-Orcs: A child of a human and a horrible monster. Oh, you don't like rape in your games?
I think I will back 4e's play, here.
Hussar
Legend
Defining Science Fiction is not all that difficult. It's a genre, not a setting. SF deals with certain themes - namely the effect of science on what it means to be human. A story set 100 000 years ago featuring mammoth hunters could easily fit into the SF genre (and does) so long as it discusses what it means to be human in the face of scientific progress.
By that definition, by the accepted definition of the genre of Science Fiction, Star Wars is most certainly not SF. It's fantasy. Setting does not define genre whatsoever. The fact that Star Wars has robots and blasters doesn't matter. It's not SF because it does not, in any way, relate the plot to the development of technology.
You can reskin Star Wars as fantasy pretty easily. Same as you can reskin original Star Trek as Western. Later Star Trek started becoming more solidly SF, but the early stuff barely qualified.
The problem comes when people try to define genre through setting. That's not how you define genre, generally. It makes a fairly good starting place, but, it's plot and theme that defines genre, not location and props.
By that definition, by the accepted definition of the genre of Science Fiction, Star Wars is most certainly not SF. It's fantasy. Setting does not define genre whatsoever. The fact that Star Wars has robots and blasters doesn't matter. It's not SF because it does not, in any way, relate the plot to the development of technology.
You can reskin Star Wars as fantasy pretty easily. Same as you can reskin original Star Trek as Western. Later Star Trek started becoming more solidly SF, but the early stuff barely qualified.
The problem comes when people try to define genre through setting. That's not how you define genre, generally. It makes a fairly good starting place, but, it's plot and theme that defines genre, not location and props.
ROFL! The fact that you came out with "Quatloo" is infinitely more in the geek pride parade than the Tenagra quote, to the point that you're the baton-master.
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Great way to state it.
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The Highway Man
First Post
Thank you. You put it probably more clearly than I would have.
The Highway Man
First Post
1/ To actually explain that to a noob, the noob has to be interested in what you're saying, aka he's already giving a chance to D&D. You, potential DM/fellow player, become the entry to D&D. The books therefore are not. They fail as an entry product (whether 3rd ed was any better in this regard is beyond the point).
2/ I was actually talking about how someone totally inexperienced in any form of fantasy/RPG/geekery will react to the memes of D&D. "Gnome" is far more understandable right off the bat for a noob just flipping through the book, and might actually conjure a compelling image of fairy tales/fantasy the potential buyer might want to explore by actually reading the product, rather than seeing "dragonborns", "tieflings" and "eladrins".
