Is D&D all about murder and pillaging?

[Aus_Snow]

Sorry, Aus Snow, but, are you agreeing with me or Shaman? I think you're saying the same thing as me - that a very large segment of people don't want to put in huge amounts of work into their hobbies, but would rather "switch off their brains and relax".

Well, the way you phrased things, in the context of that post:

But, brain candy works. People honestly don't want to work for their entertainment. They just want to have fun for a couple of hours.

It's only the weird ones like me and you who self flagellate for far too many hours a week on the hobby.

. . . I don't agree with.

TTRPGs require far more 'work' than certain other hobbies. Hence, it's not as popular as it could be, if that were not the case. And if people didn't 'want to work for their entertainment' therefore, they would find something else to do.

However, I also agree with The Shaman, that there are plenty of other hobbies that are fairly popular (though not so much as some, sure) that happen to require (roughly) as much 'work', concentration, dedication, thought, etc.

 

[The Shaman]

Again, not exactly a mainstream hobby is it? I'd be surprised actually if the number of either model train diorama builders or rock climbers is a whole lot more than the estimated number of D&D gamers.

Whoa, step back everyone. Don't get hit by the moving goal posts.

So, which discussion are we having, Hussar, the notion that people aren't willing to invest considerable time and effort in their hobbies, or the notion that tabletop roleplaying is a more mainstream hobby then model trains or rock climbing?

And before you answer, Hussar, remember that the fastest way to find the bottom of a hole is to stop digging.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

As someone who played WoW, the idea that people don't invest time into the game outside of just sitting there and playing it is ludicrous. The meta game in WoW was - and, perhaps, still is - possibly bigger then anything in D&D aside from straight out DMing.

 

[Hussar]

Whoa, step back everyone. Don't get hit by the moving goal posts.

So, which discussion are we having, Hussar, the notion that people aren't willing to invest considerable time and effort in their hobbies, or the notion that tabletop roleplaying is a more mainstream hobby then model trains or rock climbing?

And before you answer, Hussar, remember that the fastest way to find the bottom of a hole is to stop digging.

Sorry, The Shaman but no moving goalposts here.

My point was that MOST people (not all) aren't willing to invest considerable time and effort into their hobbies. Nor did I ever say that TTRPG's are more mainstream than model trains or rock climbing.

What I did say is that outside of niche hobbies, like TTRPG's, people are not willing to spend a great deal of effort on difficult hobbies.

You responded with a couple of niche hobbies which require a great deal of effort. Wow, so, how is your point counter to mine?

Me: TTRPG's require a large investment in time and effort. Most people don't want to bother.
You: Hey, look at these two niche hobbies that have numbers similar to TTRPG players. They invest a lot of time and effort.
Me:

Ok, answer me this then. If people are willing to invest huge amounts of time and effort into difficult hobbies, then why does WOW have a user base about TEN times that of TTRPG's. Why isn't everyone jumping on the TTRPG bandwagon?

 

[Garthanos]

As someone who played WoW, the idea that people don't invest time into the game outside of just sitting there and playing it is ludicrous. The meta game in WoW was - and, perhaps, still is - possibly bigger then anything in D&D aside from straight out DMing.

I can and usually do play WoW quite mindlessly on purpose but I wouldn't mistake that for the only way to play (the PVP context in particular seems highly mindful). Nor am I going to confuse the roll the dice combat... of most D&D to be high intellect but when I do TTRPG I do engage mind because imagination invocation is required for me to have fun... with wow it is optional ,

 

[billd91]

Ok, answer me this then. If people are willing to invest huge amounts of time and effort into difficult hobbies, then why does WOW have a user base about TEN times that of TTRPG's. Why isn't everyone jumping on the TTRPG bandwagon?

Because the TTRPG hobby doesn't appeal to everyone, even if they like superficially similar entertainment on other media. A friend of mine's an avid Diablo 2 player, won't play RPGs because she's not interested in them.

WoW participation is also entirely based on the time and schedule of the individual. You don't need a stable group of face-to-face players to jump in and go on quests. It's more agreeable to a busy schedule. And if you do a lot of guild raids, guess what? You probably are spending time and effort similar to that of table-top gamers to meet your guild expectations.

I won't deny that WoW gets rid of certain levels of complexity and involvement for the casual player. But then, they probably wouldn't really consider themselves hobbyists like a scrapbooker or stamp collector would.

 

[Dausuul]

I think Hussar has a point, but I'm going to modify it a bit to say:

People have finite time and energy. To invest a lot of time and energy into something, you need to be very dedicated to that thing. Therefore, the more time and energy a hobby requires, the smaller and more dedicated its fanbase will be.

And a corollary:

When there exists a less-intensive alternative to a demanding hobby, casual fans will migrate to the alternative while hardcore fans stick with the real thing. The position of the dividing line depends on how good a substitute the alternative is for the real thing, and on how much more demanding the real thing is than the alternative.

(Note that when I say "good substitute," I'm referring to how well the alternative replicates the experience/rewards of the original, not to how well the alternative stands on its own merits.)

 

[Mallus]

Put it this way... over the years my campaigns have featured shi stuff like trans-(imaginary)-national diplomacy, various kinds of literary parody, art criticism and musical theater...

... and there was still plenty of killing and looting.

In D&D, it's de rigueur. Well, for most groups I've seen, at least. Though to be fair, my current group deemphasizes the looting aspect. The killing? Not so much.

 

[rogueattorney]

I look at my Basic/Expert system - virtually nothing outside of combat mechanics - no skills, no social resolution mechanics, spells are almost entirely combat related with very few utility spells; outside of thief skills, there is virtually nothing codified outside of combat.

This is such utter b.s. that I have to wonder whether you've actually read the books in the last two decades.

Virtually nothing outside of combat mechanics - no skills?: Dwarves have a number of mining and dungeoneering skills; elves have increased ability to find secret doors; halflings have sneaking and hiding skills; there are rules on movement, resting, and encumbrance both in the dungeon, in the wilderness, in the air, and on the ocean, including rules for becoming lost; rules on necessary light in the dark; rules on opening and listening to doors; rules on finding, avoiding, and setting off traps; descriptions of various items of equipment and their uses; rules for spell research and magic item creation; rules on building strongholds and castles; while on B60 there is a few tips and suggestions for handling those things not covered in the rules.

No social resolution mechanics: Page B24 gives a very elegant 2d6 reaction chart that's nicely tied into the charisma attribute and covers pretty much any bargaining, intimidation, or other type scenario nicely. Three-quarters of page B21 is about the hiring and keeping of retainers, again quite tied into the charisma attribute. The Expert rules have an additional two pages on npcs and addresses the subject of followers, stongholds and hide outs.

No utility spells?: Keeping in mind that there were only 6 to 12 spells listed for each level... Cleric's first level... Detect Evil, Detect Magic, Light, Purify Food and Water, Remove Fear, Resist Cold; Cleric's 2nd level... Find Traps, Know Alignment, Resist Fire, Speak With Animals, Cleric's 3rd level... Cure Disease, Locate Object, Cleric's 4th level... Create Water, Speak with Plants, Cleric's 5th Level... Commune, Create Food, Raise Dead; M-U's 1st level... Detect Magic, Floating Disc, Light, Read Languages, Read Magic, Ventriloquism; M-U's 2nd level... Detect Evil, Detect Invisible, ESP, Knock, Levitate, Locate Object, Wizard Lock; M-U's 3rd level... Clairvoyance, Fly, Infravision, Water Breathing; M-U's 4th level... Dimension Door, Growth of Plants, Hallucinatory Terrain, Remove Curse, Wizard Eye; M-U's 5th level... Contact Higher Plane, Pass Wall, Telekinesis, Teleport; M-U's 6th level... Control Weather, Lower Water, Move Earth, Part Water, Projected Image, Reincarnation, Stone to Flesh.

Many rings, potions, and miscellaneous magic items utilitarian in nature as well.

The actual combat rules take up four and a quarter pages of the 64 page Basic rules. That's if you count the one full page combat example and the approximately 3/4 page of rules on morale checks, running away, and surrendering. There are three more pages of combat rules (most of which duplicate the combat rules from the Basic set or extend the tables to higher levels) and another half page on combat at sea. Compare that to the approximately 10 pages of dungeon design and game mastering tips in the Basic set and additional 7 pages of wilderness design and game mastering tips in the Expert set.

Is everything as codified as you'd like? Obviously not. There's only so much you can do in 128 pages.

 

[WayneLigon]

It is also a certain jaded cynicism that has taken over many of the games and gamers that I have played with. To show that I think we have all had that "new" gamer join the group. You know the one where they have never played an RPG before and they started interacting like a "real" person in the situations presented by the DM. As opposed to the jaded cynic who wants to cut to the chase all the time in the game. Usually it means, "Its evil, I attack".

I would usually say that that is not 'jaded cynicism' but rather learning how to act as an action hero or protagonist in a story rather than a 'real' person; ie. reacting as if you have the guts and abilities to handle an orc attack or madman's rampage instead of letting the cops handle it.

Conflict makes for a good story and cosmic good vs. cosmic evil is a great fantasy theme. So how do you separate in your own mind what you do in game?

I reside in a generally peaceful world that more or less abides by the rule of law. Most of my needs are met, and society is structured to the point that violence seldom solves a problem, especially in the long run. We have, on the whole, done a remarkable job of seeing that violence on a large scale is mostly a thing of the past. I certainly have little fear that the Count of Georgia is going to decide that he wants the fertile Alabama River valley and launch an attack, or that the rampaging beast-men are going to swarm down out of the hills this summer.

In most games, the capable and durable characters I play usually reside in a setting that is neither peaceful nor abides by the rule of law, with the added quirk that even in areas where there is such a thing as the rule of law, the 'bad guys' are usually vastly more capable than that law. Much like in superhero stories, we're the only people capable of oppossing them.

The sad truth of such a world is that violence works, especially in the short term. Generally if violence fails to solve a problem, it's because you didn't use enough violence and left some opponents alive. So, yeah, you could say that D&D - like most action genres - is largely about pillaging and killing. After all, that's what most of the world was like until pretty recently.